Liquid Mortgage: Decentralizing Real Estate Investment on the Blockchain With Chris Lehman, Real Finds Podcast #37 Transcript
Chris Lehman: How do we change currency? How do we make it work better for people? There are definitely elements of inequality and fairness that run into just the currency portion of it. But as I dug in more, leaving aside currency, how does housing work? How does real estate work? There’s so much about these systems, whether the laws and regulations that govern them or the modes in which business happens today, that drives unjust, unfair outcomes, and that is pretty far behind what can be accomplished with the technology now available to us.
Gordon Lamphere: We’re glad to have Chris Lehman on the Real Finds Podcast today. He’s co-founder of Groma, a vertically integrated real estate investment, development, and management company combined with a tech startup using blockchain to improve the real estate investing process for both traditional investors and tenants. On the podcast, we take a deep dive into the policy, regulatory, and economic challenges of improving real estate and real estate investing. It’s well worth a listen. Chris, thanks for hopping on the podcast today.
Chris Lehman: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Gordon.
From the Senate to Wayfair to Groma
Gordon Lamphere: Tell me a little about yourself and how you got into the real estate game.
Chris Lehman: I grew up in Lexington, in the Boston area, and went to Harvard, where I studied political science and economics. I was interested in policy and complex systems and how to solve big problems, but I did an internship in the Senate as an undergrad and concluded that jumping into government at the ground level wasn’t for me. There wasn’t much scope for agency or exercising my own judgment, as opposed to following rote procedures. So I switched to the private sector, which was the right call, and started in pharma consulting in Kendall Square in Cambridge, advising drug manufacturers on pricing strategy. Adjacent to healthcare, which is an important policy area, and it built great data analysis and general business skills. After three years, I wanted something with a longer-term sense of progress rather than a series of disconnected projects, which is common for consultants. I became convinced of the value proposition of information technology, not surprising in the mid-2010s: the scalable ratio between the work needed to build software and its output when applied at basically infinite scale. So I did a programming boot camp and moved to internal strategy at Wayfair, which is a furniture and home goods version of Amazon: a big online marketplace connecting lots of suppliers, with huge global operations. I worked with product managers on the software engineering side and with the physical service centers to build new tech that ran things more efficiently and drove better outcomes for Wayfair and its customers.
Then the pandemic hit in early 2020. It was a huge disruption to Wayfair’s business model, and I started working on things I wasn’t as into as the company’s priorities shifted. That led me to start talking with a friend from business school, Seth Priebatsch, founder of LevelUp, who later ran the US division of Grubhub for a few years. We were talking in Q2 of 2020, when the Fed was doing enormous quantitative easing, pumping money into the economy to keep people employed while everyone figured out how to manage the economic disruption of COVID. We got to thinking, this is going to keep happening. We had huge QE in the global financial crisis, again during COVID, and the entire period in between we were running huge federal deficits. What does this do to money? It’s much easier politically to engage in QE and monetize the debt than to cut spending or raise taxes. What does that mean long term for the dollar?
So we had philosophical conversations about currency: what does a good currency need, and how have people traditionally approached the problem? We concluded that, while it seems old fashioned, currencies backed by real assets are a great model. Gold is the classic example, but it runs into issues. It’s a fixed supply, which can cause deflation, and it’s not that relevant to the modern economy beyond its role as a default currency backing. Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether don’t have a clear tether that lets people coordinate on what their value should be, which makes them volatile. And fiat, because of the dynamics I mentioned, tends to inflate over time. That led to the question: if you had to choose a hard asset to back a currency, what would it be? Real estate was the natural choice. It’s foundational to the economy. Even today, with so much in the cloud, there’s nothing you can do that doesn’t involve real estate. A purely work-from-home business still needs somewhere to live, and the servers need a warehouse somewhere. Even the least land-intensive economic activity requires property, which makes it an effective currency backing that can grow or contract with the economy automatically, without central coordination. There’s a lot more philosophy there, but that was the on-ramp to the company we run now, which, in addition to being a real estate manager, acquirer, and sponsor, is working long term toward a real estate-backed currency.
Why Real Estate Needs Fixing
Gordon Lamphere: There’s a famous saying that they’re not making any more real estate, so I can see why you’d want to tie value to it. You spent time in the Senate and in tech. I don’t know what industry is more averse to change than the Senate or real estate, but they’re close. Is that what inspired you to tackle slow transaction speeds and the inequity in real estate, or what facilitated the move into Groma?
Chris Lehman: Those were important motivations that sprang up, at least for me, after the fact. I started with this big vision of how to change currency and make it work better for people, and there are elements of inequality and fairness in the currency piece alone. But as I dug into how housing and real estate work, there’s so much about these systems, both the laws and regulations that govern them and the modes in which business happens today, that drive unjust outcomes and are far behind what’s possible with current technology. So there’s a lot of detail in how Groma applies methods inspired by the tech boom of the past few decades to real estate to drive good outcomes for investors, residents, and our team, and how that ties into the currency aspirations and the other financial technology tools we’re planning.
What Groma Does
Gordon Lamphere: What did you ultimately build with Groma? It’s a twofold company, a real ecosystem from what I’ve seen. Can you tell our listeners how it’s grown and how it functions?
Chris Lehman: I’ll start with the real estate side. Groma has a real estate business that could operate totally independently, with its own model and its own funding sources for both the opco and the propco. We spent a lot of time figuring out the right thesis given our skill sets and where we are. The thesis is this: there’s an asset class, small multifamily, that exists in high volumes in greater Boston, where we’re based, and in even higher volumes in cities like New York, Chicago, DC, and Philadelphia. These two-to-twenty-unit residential properties have been with us for a hundred-plus years, many built from the late nineteenth through the early twentieth century, and tens of millions of people live in them nationwide. Yet they’ve been ignored by institutional investors for a lot of the same reasons single-family real estate was ignored before the 2008 financial crisis.
We just released a research piece on this in Thesis Driven. There was a huge bubble in single-family houses, then a crash, and owners, many hugely distressed on debt, had to offload massive quantities of property in a short period. A few entrepreneurs and companies started buying these properties for pennies on the dollar, which gave them room to tinker and innovate with methods of managing scattered-site properties. Previously that had been far too inefficient compared to large multifamily or office, where on-site staff manage a whole integrated, amenitized building that people pay a lot for. It was too high an opex ratio for single-family homes until the crash created financial space to figure out the tech stack and processes that made it efficient and turned it into a successful institutional asset class. Our thesis at Groma is that the pandemic created a similar period. Not the same degree of distress, because government programs went into effect immediately, but a decrease in demand for urban living created good buying opportunities. Plus, the playbook for single-family rentals has already been built: how to manage them effectively across space using new tech, and how to make the acquisitions process, which is non-trivial with smaller properties, more efficient and economical. We’ve built that out. We acquire these small multifamily properties efficiently, bring them up to a physical standard appropriate for their areas, and manage them efficiently over the full life cycle, providing good outcomes for all parties.
Where the Blockchain Comes In
Gordon Lamphere: Let me interrupt. Why is Ethereum and the blockchain the solution to improving multifamily property management? Why not just a CRM and more efficient property management?
Chris Lehman: A minor clarification: Ethereum and blockchain are not the solution we employ on the property management side. We’re heavily tech focused there, but it’s standard web tools that have evolved over the past ten years. Where blockchain comes in is the investor tech side. One of our main aspirations, as we build the portfolio and progress through regulatory hurdles so a wider array of people can invest, is to address the fact that REITs and most real estate investment opportunities don’t focus much on individual retail investors. They’re geared toward institutional and high-net-worth investors. So they don’t have much information for people who want to inspect what properties are in the fund, how they work, how they’re performing, and how that compares to expectations. If you’re a huge pension fund, you can call up and talk to an analyst for two hours and get the full data dump for your team’s due diligence. If you’re the average Joe who wants to invest, you can’t. One of the great advantages of blockchain is having information that’s publicly accessible and verifiable to a much greater degree than a traditional SQL database. So we have performance and transaction history for each of our properties, about fifty right now, on our website and on the Ethereum blockchain, for retail investors to inspect. That’s the status quo today: a higher degree of transparency in investment decisions. But as we push forward on the regulatory front, and by we I mean the blockchain space broadly, toward a rule set adapted to today’s technology, you can build really innovative financial tools that let people get more value out of owning these assets than traditional finance allows.
Gordon Lamphere: What makes a contract smart? Our listeners are a sophisticated, high-net-worth group of investors, managers, and occupiers, but not everybody knows what a smart contract is.
Chris Lehman: It’s worth backing up to what blockchain is, not in great technical depth, but the value proposition. Blockchain is a way to establish consensus around something, primarily transactions as it’s used today, without a trusted intermediary. Dozens or thousands of people across the world want to know who gave which assets to whom, when, and how much, and blockchain uses cryptographic validation to make that trustable and verifiable. That’s the primary value proposition of Bitcoin and every cryptocurrency after it. Smart contracts, which aren’t present in any sophisticated form in Bitcoin but are a defining feature of Ethereum and many later cryptocurrencies, enable a much broader array of functionality. There’s a programming term, Turing completeness, for languages with robust functionality that can do recursion and handle arbitrary complexity, as opposed to just verifying buy, sell, and transfer, which is more what you get on Bitcoin. So a smart contract is a program that runs on this decentralized distributed ledger and can execute arbitrarily complex transactions without an intermediary. Though as you increase the complexity of the transaction, you increase what they call the gas cost, which you always have to keep in mind when building this infrastructure.
Navigating Securities Regulation
Gordon Lamphere: There’s a huge regulatory framework around equities, REITs, and real estate. As a J.D., I understand there are regulatory limitations. How have you navigated that, and how do you look long term at changing the regulatory world?
Chris Lehman: On one level, we have a much simpler problem than a lot of crypto companies, because GromaCoin, the REIT shares we’re using on-chain, are unambiguously securities. We’ve been very upfront with the SEC about this. There’s no argument: a REIT share is a security, and these are just REIT shares on-chain, so they’re securities. On-chain doesn’t change that. Something like Ether is much more nebulous, and SEC Chair Gary Gensler has famously refused to say whether Ether is a security, which has caused a lot of tension, justifiably I think. But GromaCoin is real estate packaged as a REIT, in a normal REIT legal structure, on-chain. It’s a security, and we’re playing by the book. That’s where we are today.
In the future, what we actually want is a system in which the legal source of truth, both for ownership of the REIT shares on-chain and for the properties that back the REIT, is on-chain. Today we have parallel systems: representations of the properties and the shares on-chain, but the shares are also held by a traditional transfer agent, and property ownership is recorded with the registry of deeds, in physical books and computer systems. The legal source of truth is with the transfer agent and the registry. We’re working, at very early stages, on socializing the idea that this new technology’s primary purpose is trustable records of ownership, and there’s no reason some assets shouldn’t have their legal source of ownership on-chain. We’re in the early stages of a pilot program with a local deed registry for property ownership. That can be done at the local level. On the securities side, it has to happen at the federal level, and we’re too small to get that done alone, though others are working on it. So we have a model that works today within the existing framework, and as the framework evolves to let blockchain tokens be the legal source of ownership, that enables a lot more innovation.
The Liquid Mortgage
Gordon Lamphere: One of the most interesting products I’ve seen Groma develop is what you call the liquid mortgage. Can you explain how it works? It’s very pioneering.
Chris Lehman: Thank you. Liquid mortgage is what we think will be one of the killer apps for scaling the Groma ecosystem. It grew from ideas about how, because of the rules and laws that have created scarcity in housing, it’s very difficult for a lot of people today to build wealth in housing the way our parents and grandparents did, which brought a ton of people into the middle class and into stable wealth accumulation. Housing prices in major metros like Boston are unaffordable to a huge number of people, because you have to save for a down payment while interest rates are high and while you’re spending on rent, which makes it harder to save. So we came up with what we call the liquid mortgage, or the renter’s mortgage: a tool for renters to incrementally build fractional wealth in real estate equity using their existing income streams.
Say you’re a renter paying $2,000 a month. Today, you give that $2,000 to your landlord and receive a month of living space, which isn’t a bad deal; living space is valuable. But you’re not building long-term wealth. One of the great strengths of the financial system is that if you can identify a consistent, recurring payment over time, you can build further value off it. So what we propose is that, instead of giving the $2,000 directly to the landlord, the renter first uses it to buy $2,000 of GromaCoin, our REIT shares. They now own $2,000 of an income-generating and hopefully appreciating real estate asset. Then they stake that $2,000 as collateral, locking it in the blockchain ecosystem for a period, and borrow $2,000 in actual dollars from us or a third-party lender, secured against that staked REIT equity, and use it to pay rent. At that point, you have $2,000 of REIT shares, you’ve paid your rent, and you have $2,000 of debt, which nets to zero. You’re not further ahead yet. But over time, three things happen. You pay interest on the debt. You earn dividends on the REIT shares. And the shares appreciate or depreciate. There’s uncertainty month to month, but on average real estate appreciates over time, especially in established areas like Boston, and the vast majority of the time, appreciation plus dividends outweighs the interest on the debt. So you come out ahead on net equity without spending or investing anything beyond your existing rent. Over time, renters build wealth. There are no guarantees, and we can talk about the risk calculus, but you can get to the point where the accumulated wealth becomes a down payment, or you can continue flexibly, enjoying the geographic flexibility of renting while capturing the ownership value of real estate.
Gordon Lamphere: As someone who does real estate investment and works with investors, I’d like to dig into the risk calculus. Historically real estate rises and also falls, but usually rises. We’re in a period where the gap between renting and buying is the widest it’s ever been in recorded real estate history, meaning mortgage payments versus rents for comparable properties, as of the data that came out in November. Is that part of the calculus, and where does your historical data come from?
Chris Lehman: We’ve seen that as well: mortgage payments exceeding comparable rent by the greatest margin in decades, which is obviously a problem for people looking to build wealth through buying. We came up with the liquid mortgage in 2020 and 2021 when rates were much lower, so that dynamic wasn’t in play then. Now it is, and it contributes to the urgency of having this kind of solution. Worth noting, though, that the math of the liquid mortgage is reasonably sensitive to interest rates. Your biggest liability is the interest on the debt, so higher rates apply to liquid mortgagers the same way they do to traditional mortgages. But typically, and it’s not a perfect relationship, cap rates correlate positively with interest rates. So to the degree rates push up debt service costs, they also tend to positively impact the dividends coming out of those assets.
Ownership Mentality and Aligned Incentives
Gordon Lamphere: What’s the calculus from a landlord’s or owner’s perspective in the Groma model? Is it like the manufactured home rent-to-own model, where you create a better sense of ownership in where you live and reduce liabilities? Where does the model come from, philosophically or economically?
Chris Lehman: One of the neat things about the liquid mortgage is that it’s not really any different from the landlord’s perspective. You could do this as a resident in one of Groma’s properties, in which case you start to get the dynamics you’re referring to. But you could also be in Texas, California, or New York, not living in a Groma property, and your landlord doesn’t necessarily have any visibility into it. They’re still getting their $2,000 a month from you; that it originally came from a lender isn’t relevant to them. But as our ecosystem grows to a larger percentage of residential properties in the country and eventually the world, you do get that ownership mentality. If I’m purely a tenant, I don’t have as much skin in the game in the maintenance of the building, because that liability is entirely on the landlord. If something breaks, you call someone. You might be less motivated to fix it yourself at lower cost, or to be slightly more careful. If you have an equity stake in the building you live in, even a small one, you feel that sense of ownership. You’re more invested, literally and figuratively, in how the building performs, which is broadly good for society.
Vitalik Buterin, the founder of Ethereum, pointed this out in a recent talk. We have a bifurcated system of property ownership today. One portion of the population, homeowners, takes hugely leveraged bets on their primary asset, their home, and is then rationally focused on pushing whatever policy maximizes its value, often to the detriment of the broader ecosystem: zoning laws and other restrictions on new building. On the other side, renters may have no ownership stake in their community and might push for myopic policies in the other direction that serve their short-term interest but don’t make their communities more prosperous. If you can bridge that gap with a middle position where people own a moderate amount of equity in real estate across a more diversified pool of assets, they take a more holistic view, and their interests align more with society’s.
Gordon Lamphere: I don’t work personally in multifamily; our portfolio is predominantly industrial, office, flex, and medical. But I have a lot of investors in multifamily, and I can say that even in commercial, those who live or work in the building daily, even with the most proactive property management, tend to know the building best. It’s fascinating to see that applied from a different perspective, betting on where you’re renting. From a regulatory perspective, how has the regulatory world looked at the decentralized nature of NFTs and cryptocurrency applied to property, which is typically more centralized?
Chris Lehman: Because what we’re selling are REIT shares, the same laws apply as to any REIT shares. Currently the Groma REIT is under Reg D 506(c), which lets us engage in general solicitation but only sell to accredited investors, a big share of the population but still a minority. Longer term, we want this available to the people it would help most, moderate and lower-income people who are more likely to be renters. For that, we’re planning a Reg CF, regulation crowdfunding, offering, expected to go live around Q2 2024, which lets us sell GromaCoin to anyone who passes KYC and AML, the know-your-customer and anti-money-laundering requirements that govern all securities sales in the US and don’t impede the vast majority of people. That all works under the existing framework. There are barriers to making the blockchain tokens, whether NFTs or fungible tokens representing REIT shares, the legal source of ownership, but that doesn’t prevent people from taking part in fractionalized ownership under existing law. It does get easier to run the smart contract for something like the liquid mortgage if changing ownership of the fungible tokens also constituted the change in REIT share ownership. We can do it without that, but we’d need to run both processes in parallel, with all the transaction costs of the transfer agent and institutional financial side. It becomes a lot more efficient in cost and time if it all happens on-chain, and that’s where we’d want some regulatory change.
There’s also the fact that when you design a relatively novel lending product, there’s a whole other side of regulation, consumer financial protection, where you want to demonstrate this isn’t a predatory loan product. It’s analogous in many ways to a traditional mortgage. Many people may not be aware that the average LTV of a residential mortgage in the US is around 93%, quite high and not dissimilar to what we’re suggesting. The main difference is we’re doing it with diversified assets that are more liquid than a single home, which de-risks the transaction from both the lender’s and the borrower’s perspective.
Custody and Lost Keys
Gordon Lamphere: I’m generally bullish on tokenization of real estate, and I’ve brought on other guests trying to tokenize elements of it. But one of the biggest pushbacks from crypto bears is the risk of losing access to tokens. Say your token is in cold storage somewhere and you lose it. What guardrails do you have in place?
Chris Lehman: Very good question. For some people, that’s a benefit of traditional crypto norms: very high stakes, self-custodied, the buck stops with you as the holder of the cold storage wallet. Some people are up for that. Others want the managed-garden approach of a traditional brokerage account, or a crypto custodian like Coinbase that handles everything with well-built procedures. Because we’re targeting a wide range of customers, including many who aren’t hardcore crypto fans, our default is custody by Groma, where we manage everything for you with very high cybersecurity standards, so there’s very little risk of that. There’s still a subset with the hardcore ethos of “not your wallet, not your coins,” and we’ll offer them the opportunity to opt out of Groma custody and do it themselves, with lots of warnings and an explicit acceptance of personal responsibility, so unwitting people don’t run into that scenario. Something we’ve thought a lot about.
Gordon Lamphere: I’ve heard so many horror stories. A good friend of mine lost three full Bitcoin, not fractional shares, in a storage file, and he doesn’t know the password anymore. He’s got two entries left. That’s near and dear to anyone who understands the technology.
The Final Four
Gordon Lamphere: It’s been great, but we have to get to our Final Four, a great way to get to know you and to give advice to young entrepreneurs in the real estate space. First: ten years from now, where do you see the real estate industry going?
Chris Lehman: Great question, and one I’ve thought a lot about, having heard it on previous episodes. I just started a great book on a broader version of this theme, The Corporation and the Twentieth Century by Richard Langlois. He makes the point that there have been cycles over history where, in times of less robust market conditions and technological solutions, high degrees of centralization within corporations are favored, because if transaction costs are high, firms are a good way around that. But over the past few decades in the financial industry, and the past decade or so in tech, there’s a huge variety of tools that reduce the transaction costs of running a real estate management ecosystem across separate parties. As those financial and technological tools get better, I think we’ll see a lot of decentralization in real estate management: more reliance on gig economy models to reduce costs, increase flexibility, and create a more competitive environment than today’s centralized operators. And that’s before the really new stuff on the AI front, where many people, including Groma, are figuring out how to apply AI to property management. A lot of issues that crop up are predictable and repetitive, and if you feed huge amounts of data into a model, a machine learning model might be just as good as a human at diagnosing that a tenant’s faucet is leaking and routing the solution. That lets you scale these systems far more cost effectively than if everything requires a human to pick up the phone, which costs time both for customer satisfaction and in employees needed to scale. So decentralization and the rise of AI in property management go together.
Gordon Lamphere: We’ve had a number of guests talk about scalability and using centralization to enable decentralization. When it sounds like a broken record, that usually means it’s the number one pain point in the industry. Now let’s step back. We overwhelmingly bring on successful people, and we want to give advice to the younger individual who doesn’t have everything figured out. If you’re graduating college, what tidbit of advice would you give yourself walking out the door with your diploma?
Chris Lehman: Ideally I’d go back a few more years and tell myself to study computer science or finance in college. But if it’s walking out the door, I’d say: you’ve got a decent amount of free time in these jobs, so really crank on independent study of computer science or finance. I actually did Teach For America first, then consulting. Those are two disciplines, two frameworks for understanding the world, that are incredibly powerful and apply to basically anything. I don’t think there’s an industry or career that doesn’t benefit from the mindset computer science gives you about how information works, how automation works, and how you scale processes. And finance, in terms of how, given quantified, abstracted forms of value, you can restructure or create new forms of ownership and obligation to help people coordinate across time. I started figuring out the CS stuff earlier, but it wasn’t until Groma that I understood the diversity of financial tools out there and how much they shape your understanding of how value works and how you can wring efficiency out of an existing physical system just by understanding the abstract flows of value. Both are highly relevant to Groma as a real estate and tech company, but even if I hadn’t gone into real estate, they’d have been really useful.
Gordon Lamphere: Every reasonably successful company I work with today, including our own, has a tech element. When we were growing our brokerage and investment arms, I learned basic Python so I could work with our investors and engineers, and that mindset of understanding the scalability of systems and how algorithms work is critical for any investor running a large program or any operator running a business. One of the ways we give advice is through book recommendations, because books help transform your mind and give you information you can’t easily get from ChatGPT. Is there a book you’d recommend?
Chris Lehman: If I had to pick one, Radical Markets by Eric Posner and Glen Weyl. It touches on real estate, but it isn’t really a real estate or business book. It’s about re-engineering systems around better incentives to drive better outcomes. One area where it’s most relevant, and plays a non-trivial role in some of Groma’s more aspirational future elements, is rethinking how you could engineer property rights to encourage better, more efficient use. There’s something called Harberger taxation. I can’t give the full economic logic in this time frame, but the idea is that a lot of assets are much more valuable than their current use implies, which leads to societally suboptimal outcomes. The classic example: you want to build a new railroad or some ambitious large-scale project that adds a lot of value, but one holdout who’d need to sell their land can hold the whole thing hostage. At the same time, you want to respect property rights. Eminent domain has been used a lot, often in really bad ways, and you don’t want to say property rights are invalid, we’ll take your land for a pittance. So you can create a different equilibrium in how people buy and sell property through what’s called self-assessed licenses sold at auction, with the fun acronym SALSA. I’m a property owner, I set what I think my building’s price is, and I’m taxed at a fixed ratio to that price, with the caveat that if somebody is willing to pay more than the price I set, they automatically get it. I have to sell. That incentivizes me not to set too low a price to lower my taxes, but also not to set it so high that nobody can buy it, because then I’m taxing myself heavily. You’re incentivized to set the value at how you truly value it. It doesn’t strictly guarantee, but makes much more likely, that a property ends up in the hands of the people who value it most. A really neat system, and there’s a lot more in that book. So, Radical Markets.
Gordon Lamphere: I’ve got to check it out. It sounds like political and economic game theory meets a law school exam hypo, which is right up my alley. The last question, and the whole reason for the podcast: people working in and around the industry tend to have the best insight into who else we should be listening to. Chris, who should we bring on next?
Chris Lehman: One of the most interesting projects I’m aware of, which also has a heavy real estate element, is Próspera in Honduras. It’s a special economic zone on the island of Roatán on the Caribbean coast, where they’ve been given latitude to create their own bespoke regulatory framework, to some degree independent of the central government, which enables a huge amount of business innovation. A lot of that has ended up being real estate, because as more entrepreneurs come to start companies that take advantage of the framework, the value of the land and buildings goes up. They’ve done some pretty ambitious development projects and are doing more as demand grows. Fascinating project, with a ton more detail than we have time for. I’d recommend reaching out to Erick Brimen, their CEO.
Gordon Lamphere: I’ll have to reach out to Erick. One last question, and an important one: what’s the best way for somebody who listened to get in contact with you?
Chris Lehman: Just email me. It’s simple: [email protected], G-R-O-M-A. Happy to answer any questions. Our white paper is just about to move out of beta and into public, but if you ask me, I’ll send along the password to access it.
Gordon Lamphere: We may put some of that information in our YouTube and podcast notes. Thank you so much for coming on. We learned a lot, and it’s an interesting product.
Chris Lehman: Thanks for hosting, Gordon. A lot of fun.
Gordon Lamphere: Thanks again to Chris. If you enjoyed the podcast, please give us a like, a comment, and a review. Your interactions and subscriptions truly matter and help us continue to provide quality guests. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I’m Gordon Lamphere with the Real Finds Podcast. Thank you for listening.
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