Investing In Data Center Development With Anita Verma-Lallian – RFP 86 Transcript
Gordon Lamphere (00:04): Hi, I’m Gordon Lamphere, and welcome to The Real Finds Podcast, where we have real conversations with key entrepreneurs, activists, and researchers who are shaping the real estate industry and, as a result, our world. On today’s podcast, we’ll be speaking with Anita Verma-Lallian. Anita is a successful commercial real estate investor and developer who founded Arizona Land Consulting, a firm that manages more than a billion dollars in raw land investment opportunities. Anita also founded Camelback Productions, a film company producing media out of Arizona. On the podcast, we dive into the world of raw land, film production, and data centers. Many of the deals we discuss have been featured in the New York Times and have seen investment from some of the most prominent names in tech. If you’re interested in investing in and around data centers, today’s episode is well worth a listen. Anita, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast today.
Anita Verma-Lallian (01:08): Thanks so much, Gordon. I’m excited to be here today.
From Residential Land to Data Centers
Gordon Lamphere (01:12): So what got you into the world of real estate?
Anita Verma-Lallian (01:15): That’s a great question. I’ve been in this world for many years. My family has a long history of real estate development. My dad has been a land developer for probably about 40 years now, so it’s been in the family, and I grew up around it. That’s how I originally got into it. We’ve evolved a lot since. We’ve been doing land development of many different types. We started with residential home development, and now we’re doing data centers, so it’s been exciting and very different.
Gordon Lamphere (01:50): What got you into data centers? That’s not the easiest path for most investors. So why data centers?
Anita Verma-Lallian (02:01): We started getting into data centers probably two or three years ago. At that point, a lot of data center developers and hyperscalers were coming to Arizona. Arizona is a great market for data centers because there aren’t a lot of natural disasters, and land and power are cheaper. We were developing a lot of industrial sites at that time, and the infrastructure planning for industrial projects follows a very similar path to data centers, so we thought we’d get into that space. We did a big deal with Tract last year and worked for a couple of years getting the data center development in place. That’s really what spurred my interest.
What a Good Data Center Site Looks Like
Gordon Lamphere (02:55): So what does a good data center deal actually look like? It’s not every day you see data center deals, even though they’re increasing at a very fast pace.
Anita Verma-Lallian (03:10): I think the main thing with data centers right now is power. That’s the biggest piece everyone is trying to solve for. So being next to transmission lines, substations, natural gas lines, anything where you can get power solutions, is typically the main thing. You also want a large piece of land, and a piece of land where data center development will likely be approved. You don’t necessarily want to be next to a lot of residential development, because there may be pushback from residents and neighbors. So it’s a combination of power and a good property where the development will be supported. And pricing is always a factor as well.
Gordon Lamphere (03:55): How do you end up targeting those sites? It’s a lot to find a site that can handle one or one and a half gigawatts. What mechanisms are you using to target sites that work, particularly in Arizona?
Anita Verma-Lallian (04:13): We’re looking for large-scale sites right now. That’s been our main focus. We’re looking to do these massive data center campuses, so it’s about finding a site that’s big enough. We’re looking for private land, and there aren’t a lot of sites that meet that criteria. Then when you look at power feasibility on top of that, a very small number of properties actually make sense. So we’re targeting any of those properties where we feel it could be viable.
Gordon Lamphere (04:48): How often is it a property where you then look at ways to add to it, in terms of power output or a parcel assemblage, versus something that just works from the start? Are you constructing sites and making them site ready, or is it more of a search and find?
Anita Verma-Lallian (05:24): I think it’s a little more of a search and find. There are a lot of sites that could make sense, but they need some development or work to get there. Take the property we sold to Tract last year, which was 2,000 acres. When we bought it, it was residential land, and it didn’t have water for residential development. So we looked at it and asked what else we could do on that site, and a data center just made a lot of sense. It’s not typical to find a site that’s shovel ready. Usually some work needs to get done. And when you’re looking for power, you usually have to do numerous studies with the utilities to see what they can offer and what’s viable. So it’s not properties that are just ready to go. It’s usually properties that have to be developed for a data center.
Capital, Tech Investors, and Exit Strategies
Gordon Lamphere (06:21): Data centers require a lot of liquid capital and financial backing. How has that process been for you, both as a developer and going out into the market to find financial backing in a low-liquidity market?
Anita Verma-Lallian (06:43): That’s a great question. Right now, data centers have been of interest to a lot of investors. With the boom in AI, a lot of people, tech investors in particular, are very interested in getting into this space. In some of our recent deals, we’ve brought in tech investors from the Bay Area who have the technical expertise in how data centers function. Then we come in with the real estate expertise, the knowledge of how these projects get built. So it’s been a good collaboration, merging tech and real estate. It’s been interesting: even though, like you said, there isn’t a lot of liquidity in the market right now, with data centers we’ve seen the opposite. There’s a lot of capital people are looking to deploy in data centers, particularly for AI.
Gordon Lamphere (07:51): When we’re looking at deploying capital, one thing people look at is the exit strategy, because people only want to put millions or billions of dollars into a deal if they know they can get the money out in time. How have you been pursuing exit strategies? Are we talking about long-term leases? Build and sell, or flip?
Anita Verma-Lallian (08:26): That’s a great question. Each site and project has been a little different. With the project we did last year with Tract, we put the land together, and it was more of a flip to them, and they’re going to actually build the data centers. For a project we bought earlier this year, we’re actually looking to develop, and we’re in active discussions with power providers and developers about a joint venture. So we may build it and lease it, or we may build and sell. We’re open to different structures and to how far we take it. If there were an opportunity to exit faster, we’d definitely entertain it. But as of right now, we plan to build.
Single-Tenant Versus Multi-Tenant
Gordon Lamphere (09:14): Another thing that comes up with investors looking at data centers, or more tech-related industrial real estate, is whether it’s single-tenant or multi-tenant. How has that played out in your portfolio? Are you typically building multi-tenant data centers, or is it more single-tenant users?
Anita Verma-Lallian (09:44): For the size and scale of the projects we’re doing, it’ll be multi-tenant. Every now and then there are groups that come in and say they want the whole site, groups that need a very large presence. But for the most part, it’ll likely be multi-tenant.
Gordon Lamphere (10:08): Why is that? Is it that only a few groups can bite off that large a project, or what’s the driver for multi-tenant versus single-tenant?
Anita Verma-Lallian (10:23): I think there aren’t a lot of groups that can buy that much at once, and our projects can be pretty massive. In Arizona, a lot of companies already have a data center presence, like Microsoft, Google, and Meta. They already have campuses, so this would likely be an addition to what they have. That’s why my sense is it’ll be multi-tenant. But there are groups out there, like OpenAI, that may just buy the whole site, so it’s hard to say for sure. My sense is it would be multi-tenant.
Power and Water in Arizona
Gordon Lamphere (11:09): I’ll admit I’m not super familiar with the Arizona market. My specialty is very much the Midwest. One of our investors heard you’d be coming on and was curious how Arizona plays out with issues like power and water constraints. Us Midwesterners come from a very flat land, but also a land with a lot of water. How has water played out in Arizona with the grid and power?
Anita Verma-Lallian (11:39): That’s a great question. Power is definitely a concern for data centers everywhere in the country. Most utilities are saying it could take anywhere from 10 to 15 years to get power. So right now, what most developers are looking at is off-grid solutions, whether that’s natural gas, solar, or different combinations for power, and that’s something we’re exploring at this point. So the power constraint is universal across regions as far as data centers are concerned.
As far as water goes, for the projects we’ve done so far, water hasn’t really been a concern. A lot of the newer data center technologies are very water efficient, so they’re not large water users. So that’s not really a concern for us. Power is usually the bigger concern people have when they’re looking to build these out.
Camelback Productions and Film Studios
Gordon Lamphere (12:44): One thing that fascinated me when we lined you up is that we’ve had a lot of conversations with people on the periphery of the film studio world.
Anita Verma-Lallian: Yes.
Gordon Lamphere: I’ve always been impressed by how real estate and film and media can blend together. What got you into film studio development and the media world in general?
Anita Verma-Lallian (13:19): That’s a great question. We’ve always been fascinated by media and movies, and that’s how we started. We started a film production company called Camelback Productions three years ago, and we really just started by investing in independent film. One of my initial objectives when I started Camelback Productions was to bring more film production to Arizona. A few years ago, Arizona introduced some tax credits that are favorable for film production, and I think the missing piece has been actual studio space, which we just haven’t seen much of being built.
That was the impetus for merging the two worlds. Building a film studio is very similar to building any industrial development, or even a data center. It’s big, warehouse-type boxes, and that’s my area of expertise. So it made sense to converge both worlds and bring more production here. A lot of production is leaving the country, and there’s a big push for more production to happen here. We want to play a role in that.
Gordon Lamphere (14:38): Speaking of playing a role in production, where’s the crossover between the world of media and the world of data centers? To me, it doesn’t seem like an easy crossover, but I’m an outsider to both communities.
Anita Verma-Lallian (15:03): With data centers, if you have a data center adjacent to or close to a film studio, you can run things a lot more efficiently. There’s less latency, so productions can happen more efficiently and cost effectively. We’re also envisioning different features and elements within the film studio, where data centers and smart grids help run everything more efficiently. That’s where I see the crossover. With AI, things are going to start happening faster and cheaper, and we’re really trying to lean into that and build out the infrastructure to allow it.
Gordon Lamphere (16:00): How have you seen AI play out? Are studios using AI more in production? Is that where the driver is coming from?
Anita Verma-Lallian (16:11): I think so. For a lot of the productions I’ve been involved in, when you look at AI for ways to reduce budgets, your budgets can go a lot further. It’s about more efficiency in how your money is spent, and that’s the main thing. Even in editing and putting movies together, AI can play a big role.
Opportunity in a Low-Liquidity Market
Gordon Lamphere (16:44): Speaking of big roles, how do you look at today’s low-liquidity market and putting together these big land deals, particularly in Arizona? Is there a particular strategy you use to unlock value in sites, or is it about putting partnerships together and finding unique opportunities?
Anita Verma-Lallian (17:18): I think it’s mostly putting partnerships together and finding opportunities. Because it’s a low-liquidity environment, I think there are more opportunities because of that. Right now is a great time to add to the portfolio, because there aren’t a lot of transactions taking place, so there’s less competition for some of the more viable properties. That’s been our strategy in this market: take advantage of the situation and add to our portfolio. As market conditions improve, we think we’ll be strongly positioned with the assets we hold.
Gordon Lamphere (18:09): How do you balance being a capital allocator with being a developer? We’ve done a lot of development in the Chicagoland area, and I’ve always found it can be a very different role.
Anita Verma-Lallian: Yes.
Gordon Lamphere: How have you found that balance?
Anita Verma-Lallian (18:33): That’s a great question. Development makes sense in certain environments and on certain projects, and it’s always a factor of market conditions. Right now, for example, we’re doing a lot of data center development because rates aren’t affecting the end customers as much, and what’s happening on a macroeconomic level isn’t really affecting that market.
However, look at multifamily. We have a lot of multifamily projects, but that’s not something we’re actively developing right now, because there’s some pricing pressure on end customers in terms of what they can pay. So we’re waiting for some of the uncertainty around rates to play out before we start developing. The way we balance it is that when the opportunity is right and the market conditions are right, we develop. Otherwise, we’re allocating capital and holding for the right opportunity.
Gordon Lamphere (19:39): Do you think one of the biggest drivers behind product like film studios and tech is that so much liquidity has flooded into those markets that it’s creating a much bigger profitability gap, versus product like multifamily, where there’s tremendous pressure on affordability and sometimes not a lot of margin? Do you think that’s the primary driver of what’s been successful?
Anita Verma-Lallian (20:08): I think so. Like you said, it’s usually a matter of margin: which type of development is going to give you a higher profit margin. With multifamily or residential development, we’re just not seeing that. For example, home builders right now are seeing margins in the ten percent range or even lower. So there’s not a lot of home building happening right now, which is scary given the housing crisis we’re in. But with other types of development, the margins are a lot higher, and you’re seeing those projects happen. So certain asset classes are affected more than others, and that’s what’s dictating what’s selling right now and what’s not.
Bridging the Power Gap
Gordon Lamphere (20:59): You mentioned earlier that energy is dictating where sites are and aren’t feasible for tech, and we see it on the high-level manufacturing side as well. How have you seen communities and energy companies play ball to improve site feasibility? We’ve had people on who’ve done developments in Texas and a number of other states, and there’s a great challenge just finding enough natural gas in the system. How have you been able to get more energy to sites that maybe didn’t have it before?
Anita Verma-Lallian (21:44): It’s definitely been a challenge. Recently, Transwestern announced a two billion dollar natural gas line that’s going to be built in Arizona, and Governor Katie Hobbs has been backing it. That’s been great for a lot of land that wouldn’t have had power otherwise. A lot of landowners are now looking at that natural gas line to see whether they could use it as a bridge solution to power their sites in the short term. Luckily, we have seen support at the political level to get some of these projects built. That’s one example of how politicians are helping move this forward.
Gordon Lamphere (22:29): When politicians haven’t moved it forward, have you found on-site alternatives that work, at least temporarily, to bridge energy? Have you applied nuclear, modular generators, or other alternative bridges?
Anita Verma-Lallian (22:53): There are quite a few. I think solar is also an interesting alternative bridge. What we’re trying to understand right now is which solution is the most cost effective. That’s the key. There are a lot of solutions, and different technologies every day offering a power solution, but some of the newer technologies tend to be more expensive. So it’s a matter of figuring out what makes the most sense for your project. Sustainability is also a factor, and personally I like the idea of renewables because they’re more sustainable for the environment, so that’s something we’re exploring. Natural gas too. And we happen to be very close to the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, so that’s also something we’re exploring. So there are options, but I can’t tell you exactly which one is best. It depends on each site and project.
Gordon Lamphere (23:54): We’ve heard very similar things from other developers. In this capital market, a lot of developers are looking to move toward other platforms beyond traditional development with investors and exits. Are you looking at expanding into a fund or a REIT, or is your current model effective and you just want to keep building and making a profit?
Anita Verma-Lallian (24:27): We talk about it all the time: whether we want to switch to more of a fund model, or a REIT. For us, the way we’ve been raising capital and acquiring properties has been working pretty effectively, so I think we’ll continue with the model we’ve been following. In the future, if we think it would be better suited to do a fund, we may look at doing something like a data center fund, or a fund for a specific type of development, so investors know what they’re getting into. But for right now, we’re going to keep doing it deal by deal.
The Final Four
Gordon Lamphere (25:08): It’s always good to know what you’re getting into. We’re going to get into our Final Four. It’s a great way to wrap things up, learn a little more about you, and hear where we think real estate might be going. What do you think will have changed the most about real estate ten years from now?
Anita Verma-Lallian (25:29): I think AI will play a big role in how real estate is developed. You’ll see a lot of AI models that help with site selection and infrastructure planning, and that make sites smart in the sense that they run efficiently. I really see that transition happening more and more. You’ll see a lot of things being built with tech and sustainability in mind. I’m excited to see that progression happen, and I view that as the biggest change moving forward.
Gordon Lamphere (26:10): One of the ways we like to encourage change on the podcast is by taking a step back in time. Our listeners skew a little younger. Not Gen Alpha or Gen Beta, but many are in their twenties and starting out their careers. If you could give one bit of advice to a young Anita at the start of her career, what would it be?
Anita Verma-Lallian (26:42): I’d say take the risks and don’t overthink it. When you’re younger, you question yourself and try to wait for the perfect opportunity to do things. I’d say take that risk. Make sure it’s a calculated risk and that you’re well educated and informed, but don’t overthink it and miss opportunities. In my experience, real estate is so cyclical, and every year brings something different. There isn’t really such a thing as a perfect environment. So take that risk, move forward, and learn as much as you can.
Gordon Lamphere (27:25): One of the ways we like to learn as much as we can is through books. There are all sorts of media to consume. I know one of your investors is from the All-In podcast, and there are plenty of great podcasts out there. But if our listeners could pick up one book, what would it be?
Anita Verma-Lallian (27:44): A book I love, and it’s not really real estate focused, is Jay Shetty’s Think Like a Monk. I love it because it helps you have mental clarity, which I think is so important when you’re operating in this world. It helps reduce the noise so you can be more focused on what you’re trying to accomplish and on making decisions. It’s a book I highly recommend.
Gordon Lamphere (28:15): I don’t know if I’m going to get to thinking like a monk, but I can certainly try. One thing I will try to get out of you: we believe the men and women in the arena tend to know the other men and women in the arena we should reach out to. So who should be the next voice we have on the podcast?
Anita Verma-Lallian (28:38): That’s a great question. As far as real estate, or tech? Do you want to focus on real estate?
Gordon Lamphere (28:47): Real estate is great, but any voices are always appreciated.
Anita Verma-Lallian (28:52): I think Chamath would be great. He’s been such a prolific investor in so many different things. Seeing how he’s transitioned and is now taking an interest in real estate, I think it would be an interesting discussion to bring it full circle and hear what’s compelling him to look into real estate now more than ever before.
Gordon Lamphere (29:21): We’d always appreciate a connection, and I think he’s got a unique voice in the market. But if somebody wants to reach out and learn more about you and what you’re doing in Arizona, what’s the best way to get in contact?
Anita Verma-Lallian (29:35): My website is a good way, or I’m on social media. I’m on LinkedIn as Anita Verma-Lallian, and on Instagram. Any of those would be great ways to reach out.
Gordon Lamphere (29:47): Anita, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast, and we’ll have to have you on in the future.
Anita Verma-Lallian (29:50): Yes, thanks, Gordon. Loved it.
Gordon Lamphere: Thanks again to Anita. We appreciate her insights. If you enjoyed the podcast, please give us a like, a five-star rating, and a review. Your comments, interactions, and subscriptions truly matter and help us continue to bring on quality guests. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I’m Gordon Lamphere with The Real Finds Podcast. Thank you for listening.
Van Vlissingen and Co. has been the Midwest’s oldest commercial real estate brokerage, development, and management firm since 1879, and today is independently ranked the #1 commercial real estate agency in Chicagoland, home to the #1 independently ranked agent, Gordon Lamphere, and the region’s #1 ranked commercial property management team. If you own, manage, or invest in energy-adjacent, mixed-use, or transit-oriented property across Lake County, the North Shore, the Northwest and O’Hare corridors, DuPage and the I-88 corridor, Will County, or southern Wisconsin’s Pleasant Prairie, Kenosha, and Racine markets, contact Van Vlissingen and Co. at 📞 847-634-2300 or 🌐 vvco.com. For a market-wide view of where these dynamics sit today, see our State of the Chicagoland Commercial Real Estate Market for Q3 2026.