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This week’s podcast features Heather Ewing, founder and CEO of Abstract Commercial Real Estate. Heather is influential in retail leasing and the Madison real estate market. The podcast discusses the keys to retail leasing, the advantages of investing in a university town, and the future of retail, including drone delivery, historic renovations, and ghost kitchens. The podcast is worth a listen to with Heather’s extensive real estate leasing background and knowledge of the evolving market.

Introducing Heather Ewing

0:00:23 Gordon Lamphere: Hi, I’m Gordon Lamphere with the Real Finds Podcast podcast series, where we interview key entrepreneurs, scientists, and activists shaping the real estate industry and, as a result, our world.

0:00:34 Gordon Lamphere: On today’s podcast, we will speak with Heather Ewing, founder and CEO of Abstract commercial real estate. The podcast will discuss the keys to retail leasing success, the advantages of investing in a university town, and the future of retail, including journal delivery, historic renovations, and ghost kitchens. It’s worth a listen.

0:00:55 Gordon Lamphere: Hello, everyone. Today we’re here with Heather Ewing. She’s one of the influential voices in the Madison real estate market, and she will give us an inside look at how triple net leases look and how the commercial side operates for the retail market.

0:01:11 Gordon Lamphere: Heather, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

0:01:15 Heather Ewing: Thanks for having me, Gordon. It’s a joy and pleasure to be here with you.

0:01:18 Gordon Lamphere: Let’s start by talking about your background in Madison and the retail world.

0:01:26 Heather Ewing: Certainly. I was born and raised in Madison. I’m one of the few in that sense. So it provides an excellent background for commercial real estate and then in the real estate realm, just extremely niched with retail and restaurants and also an emphasis on mixed-use development.

0:01:44 Heather Ewing: They inner weave together well in promoting Madison, the downtown, and the surrounding areas. So it’s always fun bringing local talent to vision and then also the Nationals as well.

Intro To Madison Real Estate

0:02:01 Gordon Lamphere: So I have several badgers in our family, and we’ve been up for some games, camp Randall. It’s always a good time beyond the university itself; what are the things that make Madison a unique city to operate in the retail space?

0:02:21 Heather Ewing: We’re located between two lakes, so we are on an isthmus. There are a lot of outdoor opportunities. So even though we are smaller, there are a lot of outdoor options, a lot of foodies, a lot of people that want to experience different types of retail, also travel, and things of that nature. It just has nice energy.

0:02:43 Heather Ewing: People also reference the community’s warmth. So they feel welcomed back and like yourself and your family. There are so many people with that nostalgic, UW, Madison bucky badger feel, and a culmination of all those bring people back repeatedly.

Heather Ewing’s Path To Commercial Real Estate

0:03:03 Gordon Lamphere: So, talking about bringing back, let’s go back to how you got your real estate career. From what I hear, you weren’t a typical go-to school for real estate. It was much more of a unique track. Can you touch on that?

0:03:19 Heather Ewing: Yeah. So I was that weaving path. I always say you’re either the straight and narrow or the winding path. And that was very much me. I experienced a near-death accident when I was younger, and it started me on a trajectory of what I want to do in life.

0:03:36 Heather Ewing: And so I started trying a lot of different areas, and that’s where it’s a kaleidoscope in that sense. But I ended up getting into commercial real estate through a friend of a friend that said, have you thought of it? And I hadn’t. And so, in pursuing that, I talked with different brokerages and ended up with one.

0:03:56 Heather Ewing: It was boutique retail and restaurant, and I thought how interesting and perfect. I’ve always loved eating and shopping, so that’s how I got into it, and I live and breathe it, so I acclimated quickly, and when you love to do things, the hours do fly by, and it’s just expansive in that sense.

0:04:16 Heather Ewing: So I’m grateful for that meandering road. I learned a lot, and I’m bringing that to commercial real estate now. So the meandering road is always more exciting, that’s for sure.

Operations As The Foundation Of Real Estate

0:04:28 Gordon Lamphere What precisely curious about is you had an operations background. And operations are the foundation of a good real estate background. Can you touch on that?

0:04:42 Heather Ewing: Sure. So in the earlier years, again wasn’t sure what I wanted to go into, so I thought, well, I’ll go for the stability, and so it’s Junior, and they’re Heather, you’ve got to decide. So I thought, well, I will get into operations and human resources between the two very different, I’ll figure it out.

0:05:03 Heather Ewing: I wasn’t thrilled about either, but I did go into operations, and I spent eleven years there, and it’s an excellent foundation for commercial real estate, I say it’s the backbone, and with that, it was capacity planning, overseas negotiations, toolings, R and D, all these different things.

0:05:20 Heather Ewing: So when I’ve been in commercial real estate for the past several years now that it’s applying that, and it’s about understanding when and where bottlenecks happen? Whether it’s with municipal approvals, maybe it’s a shortage with construction, which many people are experiencing lately. And so it’s looking into the future and putting the puzzle together, so the process is as seamless as possible.

0:05:45 Heather Ewing: Nothing is perfect, but it sets your client up for success, which is what we want to do, and that’s how we solve the problems and have repeat business.

Finding The Right Brokerage Firm

0:05:55 Gordon Lamphere So, I’d like to touch on construction bottlenecks and some logistical issues the industry has been experiencing. But I’d also like to learn more about how you started in the real estate business. Many folks listen to this podcast, and many of my followers are just beginning in the industry. How did you get your start? Because there are a lot of folks that might not be in the business but are looking to jump in.

0:06:27 Heather Ewing: Looking for a path, and that’s so true. It is a new emergence within our category. If you want to save, I would say part of it is understanding yourself. And that will help you align with the right firm.

0:06:44 Heather Ewing: I liked the smaller boutique versus a large corporate field. And so it’s one of those in understanding yourself; you’ll find the right firm versus if you don’t want the big experience, don’t go to the JLL CBRE, which is great. It just depends on knowing yourself.

0:07:04 Heather Ewing: So once you align with the right group, I think it’s really creating the support you have through the different agents and management. And also, I am a big proponent of implementing mentors as you need to outside the firm.

0:07:22 Heather Ewing: Beth Azor is an amazing one for leasing.

0:07:25 Gordon Lamphere: Oh, yeah, she’s awesome.

0:07:28 Heather Ewing: She’s a gift from above. I worked with her in the past. It helped me immensely. And so the right firm, mentorship, and no, it’s not going to be easy. There will be days where you’re like, what did I get myself into?

0:07:44 Heather Ewing: But that’s the beauty: so much of commercial real estate is a mindset. And it’s helping you eliminate old habits that do not allow you or your clients to. And adopting better habits, better skill sets, better knowledge, hit the streets, you have to know the market.

0:08:02 Heather Ewing: And that is invaluable. And that has served me very well in hitting the streets, understanding the deals, what people want, what they don’t, and how to adapt to their style.

0:08:18 Heather Ewing: And you have to be resilient, and you need to have a why. Without the why you’re going to get washed away. And it’s not pretty. It’s an all-or-nothing sport. And that’s where I also say to have a good fitness regimen because that’s going to keep you mentally alert and on top of it.

0:08:37 Heather Ewing: And that’s a winning combination. You are surrounding yourself with the right people for learning, overcoming, staying active, and writing your goals out. If I were to go back, that’s something that I would have younger Heather do too; why don’t your goals?

0:08:56 Heather Ewing: It sounds so simple, but it was one of those; for whatever reason, I was like, I know my goals; I don’t have to write them. But there’s power in the written word.

Holistic Real Estate Career

0:09:06 Gordon Lamphere: So, can you touch on a little bit about staying active? Because look, I’ll admit there are plenty of weeks where I only get the steps on tour.

0:09:14 Heather Ewing: But in terms of that, there are a lot of brokers that I think don’t fully understand that their bodies are sometimes just as important as their minds.

0:09:24 Heather Ewing: And you’re a voice in the industry that talks about a holistic approach to the real estate practice.

0:09:31 Heather Ewing: Definitely. And it’s fun because even at networking events, locally or nationally, people are checking in; which marathon are you training for? So it is fun. And that’s one of the great things about our industry: we can weave it in.

0:09:44 Heather Ewing: The way I see it, discipline is not a bad word. And that was something that took me several years to get beyond a certain point. But again, commercial real estate really helped me. That is because you will not be successful if you’re not disciplined again. You’re not going to deliver to your firm, to your clients, and to yourself.

0:10:04 Heather Ewing: So I like to sign up. So I just signed up for the Paris Marathon.

0:10:09 Gordon Lamphere Oh, wow.

0:10:10 Heather Ewing: Yeah. I’m also working on the Abbott World Series. They call it the six majors. And it’s fun because I run it with my brother and his wife. So it’s the Ewing and Trio. And we just finished London in October, Berlin last year. There is six total. So I have to get Boston and Chicago, I already ran New York, and then Tokyo will be the crowning six. So I would say I have something to work towards.

0:10:44 Heather Ewing: And people that follow my post and my journeys, because I have started posting these. It’s really about moving. You don’t have to be a runner. You don’t have to be a marathon. Or it’s yoga; maybe it’s Pilates, maybe it’s dance, maybe it’s basketball, whatever it is.

0:11:03 Heather Ewing: But people want the immediate answer. And sometimes, you have to try different sports, just like other areas within commercial real estate, to find your niche and what speaks to you and makes you feel alive that you can deliver on.

0:11:16 Heather Ewing: So healthy. Even with the holidays and movement, eating lots of water is a perfect companion to commercial real estate.

0:11:27 Gordon Lamphere: Yeah, less eggnog, more water is all right.

0:11:31 Heather Ewing: Easier said than done at this time of the year.

0:11:34 Gordon Lamphere: Well, I wish you the absolute best in Paris. I have a tiny little Wisconsin tidbit from Paris. In my previous life, I went to a fancy restaurant in Paris, and I always remember they took out all the various kinds of cheese.

0:11:53 Gordon Lamphere: This is from Provence. This is from the cheese from Denmark, the finest cheese. And then they’re like, and then the creme de la creme was a premium Wisconsin cheddar. And I was just like, yes, America can do some things. Well, Wisconsin got their cheddar cheese figured out.

0:12:10 Heather Ewing: And with all the slack we take for the cheese heads, I’m glad you shared that.

0:12:15 Gordon Lamphere: So you might travel across the world, and you’re still going to find your classic Wisconsin cheddar.

Finding The Right Broker As A Tenant

0:12:24 Gordon Lamphere: On another note, going in, you’re talking about how to be the right broker, and I think you are the right broker, but how does someone go out and find the right broker? Because there are a lot of brokers out there. They’re all pitching their business. How does a client say, hey, Heather is the right broker for me?

0:12:43 Heather Ewing: Yeah. I always recommend to people to seek out the broker in their desired niche, and it makes me cringe because often, people don’t. But my cousin is an agent or someone down the road, and I always say that’s great; what’s their area of expertise?

0:13:07 Heather Ewing: The example I frequently go to is that if you had an eye problem, would you go to your podiatrist? They’re both doctors. Right?

0:13:18 Heather Ewing: And that’s helpful. And it’s sad when you see some of the deals that people have done, and they don’t know to me take a referral or give it away because it makes me cringe. And they’ve already been in the lease for some time, and the deal terms are horrible.

0:13:42 Heather Ewing: But you don’t want them to have a nightmare every night if you tell them you should have two years ago gone to myself or someone that knows this and get a great deal because it impacts their bottom line, which affects their time with family and with everyone else. It does correlate to health as well.

0:14:04 Heather Ewing: So, finding the right person in the category. But then also I always say it’s a gut check; there are good brokers, but is it a communication style that works well for you? And also, do you feel that they are presenting the questions that will help you make your decision, not someone telling you what you’re doing?

0:14:26 Gordon Lamphere: I can’t agree with you more. I can tell you this. There are plenty of times that we hop on and look at somebody who’s thinking about renewal, and you look at the original deal that was negotiated, and you’re surprised this person is even a broker. But at the same time, you are 100% right—that gut check.

0:14:45 Gordon Lamphere: Sometimes, it just needs to be the right fit. And they can be the best industrial broker or the best retail broker in the world, but there needs to be a fit. You probably shouldn’t be spending so much time with this person.

0:14:56 Heather Ewing: Exactly.

Finding The Right Broker As An Investor

0:14:58 Gordon Lamphere: So on top of that and following along, you figured out maybe how to find the right broker as an individual. What about investors? So investors have a wide swath of knowledge, typically of the market, but they’re looking to find the best deals. And investors are great, but the brokers on the ground usually know where the ripest and best deals are. Can you touch on, as an investor, what a great deal looks like?

0:15:26 Heather Ewing: Yeah, I always say you need to have your pivotal partners. And with that, what’s interesting is over the years, I took for granted the market knowledge that I knew because I knew it so well from all the deals I’ve done.

0:15:41 Heather Ewing: And then I’m the one that runs past properties and checks in on them like children. This is what happens when you don’t have children. Just as a heads up, folks, the market knowledge with the investor that partnership can get you the winning deal without the market knowledge.

0:16:01 Heather Ewing: It’s a shot in the dark. And that’s where I joke. I’m a recovering perfectionist, but I understand the market knowledge and combine it with your investor. And that’s where a couple of years ago, I obtained my CCIM because I saw what an integral connection is.

0:16:20 Heather Ewing: And so, in addition to that, it’s been reaching out through different networks. And a lot of times, especially for your newer agents, it’s putting on the path of, if you are an investor, where are you going? What are you reading? Who are you connecting with? What groups? And it’s getting outside of your comfort zone and reaching out to those people.

0:16:44 Heather Ewing: And commercial real estate. I mean, as you know, Gordon, it’s relationships. Our deals take time to happen. It’s really creating and cultivating those relationships through mutual care and sharing of knowledge and bringing it forward.

0:17:01 Heather Ewing: So you need a solid team for the investor and the broker.

0:17:07 Gordon Lamphere: You touched on getting out of your comfort zone. There are a lot of tenants out there that are getting out of their comfort zone. What does a good deal for a tenant typically look like in the Madison Market? Because most tenants starting their business haven’t renewed a new lease or are going to a new location in a long time, they don’t know what a great deal looks like.

0:17:33 Heather Ewing: Yeah. So as far as the specifics of the deal term, of course, we’ll leave those out. But the best way to know you’re getting a good deal is when you’re talking with your broker.

0:17:50 Heather Ewing: What deals have they done in the area? And for anyone in an urban area, a block matters. And I’ve seen it repeatedly where people will count their expenses because they’re straightforward to quantify.

0:18:04 Heather Ewing: They also need to understand what they’re bringing to the market, if it’s saturated or not, and what their revenues will be. And find the best location that you can for that. And that’s also if you’re working with a lender; I always say go beyond the amount you’re thinking of to know where your upper and lower limits are from a lending perspective.

0:18:33 Heather Ewing: And, of course, do what feels suitable for you for the rental amount. But it’s always nice to know where you lie within that range so that if you need a buffer above, you’ve got it. And if you don’t need it, you don’t have to utilize it. But people need a line of credit, so unexpected things always pop up.

0:18:54 Heather Ewing: New tenants need to ensure they work with their lender and create those relationships. Attorneys are great too. Make sure you have your lease reviewed by an attorney. And it would be best if you had someone that understands triple net leases.

0:19:11 Heather Ewing: Again, the environmental attorney is great for sales. But for your triple net lease, someone that regularly reviews them can kill deals, it can be painful, and they’re not as keen on what to look for if they’re doing other types of contracts.

Heather Ewing On Triple Net Leases

0:19:31 Gordon Lamphere: Yeah, 100% in agreement. The one thing we’d like to touch on is for your starting-out retail investor or someone who’s just getting into the industry. What is a triple-net lease?

0:19:44 Gordon Lamphere: There’s a lot of confusion, particularly from the residential side and some of the residential agents that listen and follow.

0:19:52 Heather Ewing: Right.

0:19:55 Gordon Lamphere: How does a triple net lease work?

0:19:57 Heather Ewing: Sure. So there are three factors within the triple net. One is the Cam, which is the common area of maintenance. I always say that’s the aesthetics. It’s to make the place look good, planters, snow removal, lawn care, all of those aesthetics.

0:20:17 Heather Ewing: Then there’s also property insurance. So the landlord insures the property, the shell, and then you, as the tenant, would also insure your property within the premise. And then it’s also real estate taxes. And this is where you’ll see the RET, the acronym that throws people off sometimes. It’s the real estate taxes for the properties.

0:20:37 Heather Ewing: For example, in the urban area, state street in downtown Madison, there are also additional fees. It’s part of a bid district, which is a business improvement. So you’ll see, in many larger cities, we only have one bid in Madison with our size. But that is, then, to help the landlords and tenants within the area.

0:21:00 Heather Ewing: Those are the three rungs of the triple net, the Cam, the property insurance, and real estate taxes. And something that I’ve noticed over the years, I end up working with probably one; they call them to resource one residential. And my big ask of you for anyone in that category is to work with a broker.

Heather Ewing On Real Estate Specialization

0:21:23 Heather Ewing: Even if you have to split the commission, work with a broker because your client deserves to be fully represented. And that would be like me going into residential, which I have no interest in and never would. So anyone with residential, I refer out because that’s different from my arena.

0:21:41 Heather Ewing: That would be my ask to your community.

0:21:46 Gordon Lamphere: Yeah, 100% in agreement. I didn’t buy my own house. To put this in perspective, I get it. We refer out regularly refer out residential businesses. Numerous folks come in and say, hey, will you help me buy a house? Or, oh, you did a great job on our commercial deal. And we go, no, we’re referring it out.

0:22:08 Gordon Lamphere: It’s not our specialty. And I think some folks are shocked. But staying within specialty is essential to doing a good deal.

0:22:17 Heather Ewing: Definitely. And I think, too, to your point, Gordon, just adding on real quick, when you know that you’ll do the right thing, you also end up working with other people who do the right thing.

0:22:30 Heather Ewing: Not always, but typically, you know, what I mean. I always say you want to lay your head on the pillow at the end of the day, feel good about it, and sleep well. Life is too short not to do things thoroughly and well.

Working In The Madison Real Estate Market

0:22:46 Gordon Lamphere: Yes, 100%. So on that, we’ve talked a lot about Madison in general. I think one of the big things that a lot of investors who maybe haven’t dove into a tertiary market is that there are many benefits to working in a tertiary market.

0:23:07 Gordon Lamphere: And so can you touch on Madison and the kind of the experience of investing in the tertiary market versus your standard New York, La, Dallas, Chicago kind of view?

0:23:21 Gordon Lamphere So, one of the benefits of investing in Madison is that we’re more stable than other areas throughout the country, such as going through COVID and everything. And the reason for that is the university, and it’s also the state government. We have significant growth right now in the downtown, and with that, a lot of it’s local, but there are also out-of-state investors.

0:23:48 Heather Ewing: So, multifamily is on fire. As you know, the commercial is doing well because there’s lower cost and greater stability. You may get lower returns in certain areas, but we also have a deficit in housing. So it’s just straight-up demand that drives it. And so everyone experiences construction cost increases and supply chain issues anywhere, but again, having lesser cost here to hold matters as well. The land is less expensive.

0:24:28 Heather Ewing: One of the funny things about growing up and being here over 40 years is that it is incredible to see our land cost. But when you put that in perspective nationally, ours are very small. So those are just a few of the benefits and it’s also relaxed. So people also love the big cities in the hustle and bustle, but sometimes it’s nice to come to a slower pace and have that time.

0:24:57 Gordon Lamphere: Yeah, one of the interesting tidbits, many investors on LinkedIn and Twitter routinely talk about why they invest in college towns. And I think one of the fascinating aspects, and I know you’ve touched on it in other blogs and podcasts, is that a lot of people who are very successful in another profession come back. They want to invest in the nostalgia of their college town. And I think that’s something maybe you could touch on that a little bit.

0:25:29 Heather Ewing: Sure. Well, it’s interesting because I do a lot of leasing on State Street, and that’s where going to the union and having a spotted cow, so many people want a spotted cow.

0:25:41 Heather Ewing: So we’re talking the nostalgic of their UW experiences again, whether it was himself or family or maybe a friend and, you know, the fond memories of that. And then just the union. It’s mesmerizing. It’s on Lake Mendota, all the colored chairs out there.

0:25:59 Heather Ewing: And it’s peaceful and relaxing in that sense, but it also has a density of over 3 million on the next couple of blocks on State Street. And so you really have a win of both. And a lot of times, if you’re in the larger market, you can’t walk a couple of blocks and have that. It’s a concerted effort.

0:26:21 Heather Ewing: So I think people have a lot of good feelings about it. Madison continues to do well. We have over 45,000 students at the UW, so there are many positives, not only for the UW but Madison as well, which keeps people coming back. Yeah, people keep coming back to Madison, especially for that spotted cow, that’s for sure. Whatever it takes.

Brokerage In A High-Interest Rate Environment

0:26:48 Gordon Lamphere: On the note of coming back, I wanted to return earlier to the idea of the high-interest rate market. And I know for us; it’s shifted some things, particularly the build-out world. What are you guys seeing in the high-interest-rate world of retail investing and development in Madison?

0:27:09 Heather Ewing: Yeah, well, definitely killed deals, that’s for sure. People are waiting until the interest rate goes go down, but from a leasing perspective, it takes longer to do the deals. We used to be able to turn around a budget from a contractor in a week. Now it’s two to three weeks.

0:27:29 Heather Ewing: Also, when you’re running into issues with doors and some of these other staples, it’s just extending everything. So it used to take about four months for a restaurant to build out a full commercial kitchen. Now we’re at seven; sometimes, it’s even eight. So it’s really getting the fixtures, the furniture, everything.

0:27:55 Heather Ewing: And that’s where Too, a lot of people, different restaurants have gone under, but it’s quick, fast build because everyone does want a turnkey space. It’s much more economical from a start-up. Nothing is ever perfect.

0:28:09 Heather Ewing: Obviously, there’s always something being demoed and rebuilt to fit the cuisine or the atmosphere that an operator is going for, but it’s just really made it unstable. And I think that’s where Too, going back to the beginning of our conversation, having that operations background again, it’s funny how it’s coming full circle, in a way, yet again.

0:28:35 Heather Ewing: It’s following these different limiting factors through to get the materials, get the supplies, get the equipment that you need, and that’s where Too I follow up on things very quickly, and I think that’s what happens with other deals, especially new brokers or others, that they don’t have a sound system in place for follow up.

0:29:01 Heather Ewing: And sometimes, Too; what I’ve noticed lately is that you have to think outside of the box to get the deal done. And I just completed a triple net deal, and they’re on the second floor, and the developer is adding four feet.

0:29:17 Gordon Lamphere: Wow.

0:29:18 Heather Ewing: So that was unique. I’m used to going into a brand-new development, but this is the first time I’ve been quiet in this scenario. So as you can imagine, that was intriguing with a rooftop unit HVAC. So we finally worked out a workaround for that. The transitional HVAC heating, the permanent addition of floors, and the shifting of the elevator shaft affect the space.

0:29:42 Heather Ewing: So it was an interesting deal, but creativity and follow up when the contract with supply chain right now and also the fear, I think of tenants and landlords.

Brokerage Systems

0:29:54 Gordon Lamphere: Can you touch a bit more on the creation of a system to follow up because there are a lot of young brokers and developers out there that don’t have sound systems in place, and I think that’s one of the biggest game changers around.

0:30:09 Heather Ewing: Yeah. Make sure you talk to a few seasoned brokers that you respect and are doing well in the area you want to and see which CRM they use. They went through many over the years, ones they’ve liked, ones they haven’t, the good, bad, and the ugly. And I always say shorten the learning curve if you can.

0:30:33 Heather Ewing: And as I reflect on my earlier years, I would have asked for help and gone to additional people and resources to find answers. I was trying to do so much on my own and within the firm that sometimes you need to invest in other venues, too, to help you. So get a great CRM.

0:30:56 Heather Ewing: I’m using client look right now. I like that one so far. APTO was a little too robust for me, but it’s just finding the right one that works for you and then remaining consistent and following through with that. So that’s something fundamental.

Seeking Help From Brokers In Other Markets

0:31:16 Gordon Lamphere: Excellent advice. I’ll say. I know you talked about Beth, but I recommend the one tidbit to everyone, and I say this quite often on the podcast, is to reach out to somebody in another market in your industry.

0:31:34 Gordon Lamphere: If somebody is in Florida, Texas, or New York, they will be much more willing to help because you’re not competing with them. They’re just there.

0:31:46 Gordon Lamphere: And the number of folks I’ve reached out to over the years and have reached out to me from other markets, and I’ve been on calls for an hour with somebody helping walk through how they do a process. You’d be surprised how helpful some folks are in the industry.

0:32:02 Heather Ewing: It’s so true. We have a mastermind. And so it’s brokers out of La Tallahassee, Maryland. Wisconsin and North Carolina as well. And it is super friendly. Everyone is in the retail restaurant sector. We can bounce any question off, and you know that you’re getting a great answer, and it’s from someone that’s very active in the arena and doing well. So that’s a perfect point to bring up.

Heather Ewing On The Future Of Real Estate

0:32:32 Gordon Lamphere: So now we’re going to get to our final four. These are the final four questions we ask everyone. I know the Badgers have been to Final Fours quite recently, but this will be our little Final Four. So ten years from now, what do you think will change the most about retail?

0:32:56 Heather Ewing: Yeah, so there will be more extensive drone delivery. Everyone wants things right now or yesterday. I see that. What’s interesting is in Madison, they have the food service on the UW campus with the little robot. Although social media greatly impacts everyone’s lives, it will not be free.

0:33:23 Heather Ewing: I see there being tears, and I see higher costs. With that, things will continually go towards the fast-casual, and you see the Ghost Kitchens already transforming into groups and getting rid of that name. So I think different branding. And I also think what we do is so intricate and customized that you’ll always need great brokers, but people will get away from the generalist and become more niche.

0:33:53 Heather Ewing: And I also see AI coming in for the basics of providing general data, answering questions, and things of that nature. And what’s interesting is there’s a local developer that I work with, and they’re using it for their multifamily to bring in the residential tenants.

0:34:16 Gordon Lamphere: Yeah. So I think there are two things I’d like to follow up on. The first is any young broker out there should read this book, The Velvet Rope Economy. It’s all about stratification within industries and how it behooves businesses to stratify and develop either different price points or unique specialty products at different price points.

0:34:37 Gordon Lamphere: And we’re seeing that in the real estate economy, whatever asset class you’re in. So thank you for touching on that. The second thing I’d like to know is that I’ve heard about several Ghost Kitchens developments in Madison. I’m curious if you’ve done any Ghost Kitchen or been adjacent to any Ghost Kitchen developments.

0:35:02 Heather Ewing: I did the first one in the downtown. Gordon, you’re talking to the right person. So it was interesting. I had several deals last year on State Street, and one was the Ghost Kitchen.

0:35:18 Heather Ewing: And with that, it’s really helping people accept change right there’s, kind of overcoming the hurdle of we do want retail experiences and things of that nature, but it’s also feeding the entire immediate downtown, which is helpful.

0:35:37 Heather Ewing: You will often see the Ghost Kitchen further out because it’s less costly rent and things of that nature. But with our density, it just worked really well, and they also finished it off nicely. So aesthetically, it was pleasing to the eye.

0:35:55 Heather Ewing: We have so much happening in the area, and then it helps the other restaurants in the area, too, with any overflow. So it’s a reimagining, it’s accepting change and how we bring it forward to create something really cool that will also be financially beneficial.

0:36:15 Heather Ewing: So it was a fun deal to do.

Heather Ewing’s Recommendations

0:36:19 Gordon Lamphere: It sounds like a fantastic deal. So on the note of traveling back, I know we just traveled back for a brief bit to the first ghost kitchen, but what about traveling back to the start of your career? So what would you tell a young Heather starting out in the business world if you could give her a quick five-minute chat?

0:36:45 Heather Ewing: I would also tell her to get help outside of the firm. So for me, again, it was a tiny firm. It was the owner, myself, and another agent. And everyone is so busy, and everyone knows our industry in general is not great for getting a lot of one-on-one time.

0:37:07 Heather Ewing: I probably got more than some in that sense, but I was digging and looking for answers to shorten my curve; I wish I would have gone and found a Beth Azor. That would have been immensely helpful. It was really hard, but it was something that I wanted. And I joke that I’m like a bull in a china cabinet.

0:37:29 Heather Ewing: When I want something, I put 200% in. Otherwise, why bother? So I would say get help in addition to your firm, get help outside. That’s important.

0:37:42 Gordon Lamphere: That’s a great point. So on the idea of getting help and going to the whole principle of seeking out additional knowledge, one of the things that I do is I’m a big reader. So if you could suggest a book that has influenced you or influenced folks at your firm, is there one in particular that you think would help a lot of our young listeners?

0:38:09 Heather Ewing: Yeah, so mine is probably a little bit different. Mine is Napoleon Hill, so it’s been nostalgic so you can grow rich. And I like that because when I was in karate, I always heard of training your basics and keeping them strong.

0:38:26 Heather Ewing: You can add all the colorful stuff in later, but with strong basics, the rest matters. So I see Napoleon Hill as the foundation like I do operations, and everything else added just made it rich. And it’s a mindset. You can know a lot.

0:38:43 Heather Ewing: You can be really good, but if you have a poor disposition or you don’t believe in yourself, you don’t believe in your clients; good luck. So the mindset is fundamental, and whether you’re new or have been in it for a long time, it’s great to read both.

0:39:04 Gordon Lamphere Great. Yeah. So the last question we always ask, and this is the most important one, is the whole idea of the real Finds podcast: finding influential folks.

0:39:13 Heather Ewing: Right?

0:39:15 Gordon Lamphere: Who’s the next person we should have on the podcast?

0:39:18 Heather Ewing: I would recommend Debbie Ashland from Tallahassee. I love the accent. She’s great. You’ll love her.

0:39:26 Heather Ewing: She’s also a hard hitter, but in the south and retail and restaurants is her niche, and she tends to work with more buyers and tenants than landlords, whereas I’m primarily landlords, but I do work with certain buyers and tenants.

0:39:41 Heather Ewing: And she’s great. I met her at a networking event. So the power of networking to everyone newer, definitely network, it can be quite enjoyable, and you’re going to grow, and you’re going to have fun.

0:39:55 Gordon Lamphere: Well, my wife is a hard-hitting lawyer from the south, so I’m not going to hate on Southern women.

0:40:02 Heather Ewing: Yes. She’s the best.

0:40:04 Gordon Lamphere: Thank you so much, Heather, for hopping on the podcast today. We heard a lot of great advice, and we appreciate you taking the time to hop on.

0:40:13 Heather Ewing: Thank you, Gordon. It was my pleasure. It was great.