50% Faster, 10% Cheaper: Factory-Built Housing That Pencils With Rory Rubin – RFP 79 Transcript
Gordon Lamphere (00:04): Hi, I’m Gordon Lamphere, and welcome to The Real Finds Podcast, where we have real conversations with key entrepreneurs, activists, and researchers who are shaping the real estate industry and, as a result, our world. On today’s podcast, we’ll be speaking with Rory Rubin, founder of SI Container Builds. On the podcast, she explains how SI Container Builds uses shipping containers to manufacture sustainable, steel-framed housing. Her housing is 10% cheaper and 50% faster than traditional builds. We hear how her company is tackling Chicago’s housing crisis, partnering with Habitat for Humanity and local developers, and redefining what affordable looks like. It’s a must-watch episode if you care about innovation, sustainability, and the future of housing. Rory, thanks for hopping on the podcast today.
Rory Rubin (01:02): Good morning.
From Social Work to Container Manufacturing
Gordon Lamphere (01:04): So why real estate? You have a non-traditional real estate background. What got you into the world of real estate?
Rory Rubin (01:15): I’m getting more comfortable sharing my journey, because at first it seemed very odd, but now I can understand how it ties together. In the first part of my life, I was a clinical social worker. I actually started off working with Alzheimer’s disease and in the mental health arena, and then migrated into sales in healthcare, and then consulting. All of that brought me to the aha moment when I woke up in my late 40s and said, “You know what, I’m having my midlife crisis, and I want to start a business.” The joke between my husband and me is, “Are you sure you want to do that? Maybe you just want to buy a car,” because that seems to be the common thing for someone having a midlife crisis. And I said, “Nope, this is what I want to do.”
Ultimately, it was because we wanted to live more sustainably. We knew we were going to be empty nesters soon. And my dad is an architect, so it’s not so strange that I had a passion for architecture and sustainability. When I started to poke around and realized that other countries have been repurposing the shipping container well for decades, I said, “This is exactly what I want to do.” So it is unusual. I do have some business background, but it’s not traditional real estate. That’s okay, because what we do is surround ourselves with people who can supplement the things we don’t know. That’s what we’ve done over the last seven years.
Gordon Lamphere (02:45): Your real estate company is also non-traditional. What got you into the world of container homes specifically?
Rory Rubin (02:52): We actually don’t consider ourselves a real estate company. We’re manufacturers. We have a factory outside the Chicagoland area where we’re able to build to scale. We buy one-trip containers right off the dock. It’s really nice that we’re in the Chicagoland area, because they can come in by rail, and we’re on the Great Lakes, so they come right off the port and are transported up here. Then we can build all year round in our factory, so we don’t have to worry about the Chicago weather.
I guess it is a piece of real estate, because obviously we’re trying to solve problems like affordable housing, but we’re doing it in, as you said, a non-traditional format. In the Chicagoland area especially, we’re the only steel-framed manufacturer in the state right now. We’re also the only licensed and certified container repurposer in the state. There are other fabricators, but we build turnkey, and we can do that all year round.
The Factory Advantage
Gordon Lamphere (03:52): Real estate has been built outside of a factory for a long time. What are the unique advantages or disadvantages of working in a factory setting instead of a traditional site-built home?
Rory Rubin (04:09): It’s a really great question, and probably what I’m most passionate about talking about: what modular construction really means, and its documented ability to save people time and money. I have documentation of how we save by not having to be on site. Forget the weather issues we all have in the Midwest, when projects have to stop because of a torrential downpour or it’s freezing cold or boiling hot. I don’t have to deal with that. I can literally manufacture something so much faster and so much cheaper than being on site. If you go to our website, our blogs showcase how we do that.
That’s why we’re doing it, because we’re in a housing crisis. I don’t need to tell you that, Gordon. You get that. Especially in the Chicagoland area, we are desperate for housing that is affordable. I wish I could say I’m cheap, but I’m less expensive for great quality. Nothing is cheap, because I’m still building to code and still using the same materials other people use. But I can buy them at scale because we’re doing more in our factory.
Gordon Lamphere (05:24): In a factory-built setting, one thing I often hear is that it uses a lot less labor. Is that true, or is it more about efficient labor than less labor?
Rory Rubin (05:42): I wouldn’t say it uses less labor. Efficient labor is a really great way to look at it. With the way our flow works, I know when our electricians, certified plumbers, certified drywallers, and spray foam crews are coming in. It’s almost like an assembly line, so we can do it much more efficiently than if we had to deal with weather or other on-site trouble.
Now, I will say the easiest part is the build. I say this all the time, because I still have to work with zoning and permitting like everyone else, and make sure the site work is complete, although we can do the build while the site work is being done, which is really nice. I still have the same challenges any other build will have on some of those things. But the benefit is that I can produce something so much faster, so our developers get a better ROI, and that makes a big difference. So, Chicago, bring on your weather.
Standardized, But Still Customized
Gordon Lamphere (06:51): Speaking of bringing it on, one thing you hear a lot about modular construction, manufactured homes, and other factory-based alternatives is that there’s no customization. It’s like Henry Ford’s Model T: you can have any color you want, as long as it’s black. Are these homes still customized, or are they pretty standard?
Rory Rubin (07:28): I really wanted to make sure that if we were going to standardize something, it wouldn’t make somebody feel like it wasn’t their own personal home. So to answer the question, some things are standardized. People can pick out layouts, but those layouts are standardized so we know they’ll fit into a certain area. People can pick their finishes, cabinetry, countertops, accessories, paint color, and cladding.
My favorite thing to say is that if you don’t like the look of a container, I’m going to clad it to match your home. When we put our office in our backyard, our municipality said, “You’re not putting a rusty old box in your backyard.” And I said, “Wait. First of all, it’s not a rusty old box, because I only use one-trip containers. It’s crossed the ocean one time. And I’m going to clad it to match my stucco home.” They were like, “What?” And when they saw it, they said, “Wow, that’s really cool.” When you walk inside, it feels like a home. It doesn’t feel like a mobile home. We’re not talking about a mobile home park. This has the structural integrity of Corten steel, so it will outlive the stick-frame homes we live in, but it also has more charm, so it blends in.
One of our partnerships in the making right now is with Habitat for Humanity, and we’re customizing a home for them. We also do other projects, like the one we just placed at Navy Pier, a commercial, bespoke project because it sits right on the Navy Pier marina, and it’s very different. And then there’s the group home for trafficked girls we’re working on with HODC, Shelter Inc., and DCFS in Palatine. It’s a 7,000 square foot group home for girls who have been trafficked, and it will be completely clad to blend into the Palatine community. So my answer is a little wordy, but we do customization, and on the inside there’s also standardization in how we do things.
A Group Home for Trafficking Survivors in Palatine
Gordon Lamphere (09:39): What inspired you to take on that Palatine project? It’s a unique build for the market and a unique way to tackle an issue that’s near and dear to our hearts. How did you go about it, and how do you blend containers into the Palatine community?
Rory Rubin (10:01): I feel really blessed, and I think this is exactly where that thread of social work came together for me as a businessperson. I’m now able to build projects that are purpose driven and really needed. We’re partnering with HODC and Richard Koenig, a very seasoned, well-respected nonprofit developer. He and I had a relationship, and in his mind’s eye, he knew this was coming. He knew Karina Santamaria, the CEO of Shelter Inc., and that relationship was building. They wrote a grant that was funded by DCFS. It was so many people coming together at the same time and saying, “We have a solution. Let’s do this.”
Then we went to Palatine, and like every municipality, they said, “You’re going to build what, with what?” We said, “Let us pitch to you and show you what it is.” They’ve been phenomenal to work with. They want to make sure we’re building to code and following everything the municipality dictates. But in Illinois, not only is there nothing like this home, there’s nothing for these young girls coming in off the streets who are sleeping on their social workers’ floors. So there’s the purpose. The containers were a wonderful, sustainable way to bring something to fruition a whole heck of a lot faster, something that’s never been done before. We’re really excited about it and hope to do many more passion-driven projects.
Zoning, Education, and Myth Busting
Gordon Lamphere (11:41): I know you’ve done some passion-driven projects, but one thing that can get incredibly passionate and feisty is zoning and the challenges of getting projects done in a municipality. How has modular housing in Chicago, and particularly containerized development, played out in terms of community reception? And how do you get past communities that may be less willing to accept an alternative to the traditional housing model?
Rory Rubin (12:19): I appreciate the question, because I really do spend about 85% of my time on education. I’ve taught classes to help people understand a few key things that are lost on people. Number one, containers have been legally allowed to be repurposed for both residential and commercial use since 2016 in the ICC codes. Fellow container people like Stephen Shang in Austin, Texas, are the ones who lobbied to say, “We know we can repurpose these like anything else,” and they got that legalized. That’s been very important, because most municipalities don’t even realize containers are already legal. So if the first line of defense is, “We don’t have container homes, they’re not legal,” that’s actually not true.
The second piece of education is about durability. If I can tell you I’m going to build you a steel structure with lower maintenance that will outlive what we typically live in across Chicagoland, forget the whole United States, wouldn’t you be interested in learning more about that from a maintenance standpoint? We have proven data on that. Then comes the blending piece. If I can show you that it’s not a rusty old box, and that it can blend into any community, whether stucco, brick, or a hunting cabin with HardieBoard siding, so it looks like whatever you want, wouldn’t you really embrace it? So it’s getting in front of municipalities and doing a lot of education about what they may have been misinformed about in the past. I do a lot of myth busting. The internet has not been my friend.
Gordon Lamphere (14:17): I think there are a lot of people who complain.
Rory Rubin (14:22): I spend time responding, and sometimes I get so aggravated. I think, why am I bothering to respond to this person who says, “I can buy a container anywhere and repurpose it”? Okay, good luck. I have licensed trades that have spent years figuring out how to do this correctly and properly, and the internet is telling me they can do it for five grand. Okay. You just deal with that.
But I do think my job is education, so people can understand I’m not so weird. When you walk inside a container home, it looks exactly like the homes we all live in, because I’m using the same drywall, cabinets, countertops, flooring, and HVAC systems. But it’s also sustainable and green, and everything is done exactly the way it should be. I’m hoping people will start to embrace it more quickly as I get more engaged out there. It hasn’t been announced officially yet, but I got notice that, for the second year, I’m a Crain’s sustainability leader. So Crain’s is recognizing that what we’re doing is purpose driven and important. I’m just hoping that eventually I won’t have to spend so much time on education and people will just understand.
Sustainability Beyond the Box
Gordon Lamphere (15:48): Let’s talk about sustainability. One thing people mention about container housing is that it recycles what would traditionally be a point of waste in global logistics. Are there other parts of the project that are sustainable, or is that the primary sustainability driver?
Rory Rubin (16:14): I’ll talk briefly about that so people recognize that we’re in something of an environmental crisis, with twenty-six million shipping containers lying around. I don’t think people realize that we don’t ship them back. It’s cheaper for China to make a new one than for us to ship a container back empty. When you’re driving down the highway and see them stacked, that’s typically a container graveyard. If we don’t take them and recycle them, they won’t be recycled, and you’ll just see these boxes stacked high. That’s a real problem. People think they’re storing things in them. They’re really not. So that’s the core of the sustainability story.
But then we take it a few steps further. We have data on our carbon footprint and on how and why we do what we do. We’re also using mini splits, going all electric, and using recycled products with our vendors whenever we can, because we know how important it is to the environment. Whatever we do going forward really makes a difference. We’re doing solar now. I wish I could say it’s the best way to do it, but unfortunately it’s still expensive. For people who want solar and want to be more sustainable that way, it’s not always possible because of the affordability piece.
Financing and Insuring Container Homes
Gordon Lamphere (17:44): Speaking of affordability, one of the big things that comes up on probably ninety percent of our podcasts is financing, and housing affordability from the financing angle, particularly in this low-liquidity market. Are there differences in how modular homes are financed compared to a traditional home built on site?
Rory Rubin (18:24): It’s a great question. I know people still struggle with it in certain areas, and it’s unfortunate, because there really shouldn’t be a difference. If we’re building with the exact same materials, and I know what my Corten steel structure is, it should be easy to get similar comps. Steel is just a better material for many building purposes than timber. So if you set the steel structure aside, everything else inside is exactly the same. Three bedrooms, two baths. Now I can do my comp.
I have heard it’s still challenging for some people, but it’s getting easier. When people call me and ask, “Do you know somebody who can do insurance?” I know State Farm is really great with that. “Do you know somebody who can do comps for the bank?” We do know people now who can help, because they’re used to dealing with this.
I will say, Gordon, one of the things we’ve really shifted at SI Container Builds is that we don’t do direct-to-consumer anymore. I typically don’t work with individuals unless it’s for a local ADU backyard space, because we’re here. We work with developers, nonprofits, and other commercial entities, because that financing challenge was really slowing us down. When we work with more seasoned people instead of individuals, they tend to be able to push that stuff forward a lot more easily than we can.
Gordon Lamphere (20:02): How do insurers look at your homes versus more traditional construction? Is it seen as a benefit, or as uncertainty? What’s the insurance angle?
Rory Rubin (20:20): So far, everything we’ve produced has been insured properly, exactly the way they’d insure any other house. They’ve basically set aside the fact that it’s made of Corten steel, knowing that steel is better against fire. It’s not going to burn down, and we know our fire rating, so that’s a really good thing. Then they look at the traditional comps they’d use for any other house. So far, the developers and commercial clients who’ve had to deal with it haven’t had issues. It’s just getting better.
It’s all about education. Once people are out there doing it and are more comfortable, they see it isn’t so weird. We have a closed factory, but people doing development work often ask to come by, and they say, “This is not what I thought. This is very traditional. You’re using steel studs, so now I know they won’t burn. You’re doing the flooring exactly the same. You’re putting in mini splits. You’re working with so-and-so as a sub, and we’ve worked with them too.” So it’s not so unique. It’s just unique to this area, while other countries have been doing it for decades. It’s pulling that data and having people see it, and once they see it, they get more comfortable.
The ADU Fight in Chicago
Gordon Lamphere (21:48): One thing we talked about on a recent podcast is communities getting more comfortable with ADUs. You mentioned ADUs earlier as the area where you still work direct to consumer. How has containerized housing worked in the ADU space? My ignorant assumption is that it’s probably one of the perfect applications. How have you seen it play out?
Rory Rubin (22:20): If you see all the gray hair I have in here, it’s probably because of ADUs. I know a lot of people who have been fighting the good fight on ADUs in Chicagoland, especially in the city proper, for several years. Look at states like California and Massachusetts, and a few others, that have passed statewide mandates legalizing ADUs, because they know it’s a solution for affordable housing. Chicago has been dragging its feet for so long.
I can literally build you a one-bedroom place in two weeks. But it could be two years before you get that unit, and not because I can’t build it fast. It’s because of all the regulatory issues. Chicago did a pilot. It was a three-year pilot that turned into a five-year pilot, and it still hasn’t passed. I know people like Steve Vance are fighting the good fight and doing a great job to get it passed, because it’s the whole NIMBY concept: not in my backyard. But this isn’t for an Airbnb. This is for an adult parent who can’t afford a nursing home but still wants to live independently. Or an adult child who can’t afford rent, because rents have gotten so astronomical, who has nowhere to go but wants some independence too. This is essential. ADUs in people’s backyards should not be an issue anymore, but unfortunately it still is.
Stacking Containers for Multifamily
Gordon Lamphere (24:05): Another big issue we’ve looked at is housing in the commercial space, particularly multifamily projects throughout Chicagoland. How have container homes played out on your end in multifamily and commercial?
Rory Rubin (24:28): We’re working on a really great multifamily project right now. It’s actually just over the border, not even in Illinois, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t coming to Illinois for us as well. We’re talking with developers, because containers are made to be stacked. They’re stacked nine high on the ships, and with a good structural engineer and added structural steel, you can stack them even higher. Look at places like Los Angeles, Washington, DC, New York City, Atlanta, and Nashville. They all have multifamily buildings made of containers. So it’s coming, and it’s been done before. I’m not the newbie. It’s just new here. And I can do it faster and cheaper, and wouldn’t that be wonderful? It’s steel, like many of our beautiful skyscrapers in downtown Chicago. So it’s already tried and true, and we’re getting there. Unfortunately, our first multifamily will be just over the border in another state, and then hopefully Chicago will say, “Wow, okay, we get it. You can do this.”
How Much Cheaper, and for Whom
Gordon Lamphere (25:44): When you say cheaper, how much cheaper are we talking relatively? A few pennies of cost savings, or vastly cheaper? What should our listeners generally understand?
Rory Rubin (26:01): We’re traditionally 10% cheaper out the door. That applies across affordable housing, missing middle, and more luxury product. If you’re going after a more luxury crowd, I might not be cheaper. I’m also not the cheapest. One thing we’ve found difficult, and we’re working on it, is projects serving homeless communities, because people often think containers might be good for that. Unfortunately, because I build to code, the cost is still there. But right out the door, I can tell you I’m 10% cheaper and up to 50% faster. Building something faster gets you your ROI. And we buy in bulk. We work with container brokers all over the country and broker our containers right off the docks, so we get a price break, and all of that helps with cost and affordability.
Gordon Lamphere (27:04): Ten percent cheaper and fifty percent faster isn’t the worst thing in the world. One of the worst things we deal with in Chicagoland, though, is just that missing middle, which you mentioned earlier. How have you seen containerized housing play out there? Do you think it’s ultimately primarily a missing middle solution, or does it have better applications?
Rory Rubin (27:37): I’d say supporting the missing middle might be our sweet spot, because of what we just talked about: faster and less expensive. We’re working with some developers in the city of Chicago on that now so they can see it. My favorite is what I call my little mini multifamily, which is out there for people to see. You can do it in two styles. It can be a three-flat, or it can be a two-flat with a rental on top. We’re building those in the three hundred thousand dollar range, which is a pretty good market for people to have instant rentability in the home they’re buying. Now you’re building generational wealth, and you’re building something faster. It’s a great infill piece for the city. So I love my little missing middle mini. It’s a terrific build.
How Long Do Container Homes Last?
Gordon Lamphere (28:38): You talked about generational wealth. Approximately how long do these container homes last? Are they comparable to a traditional build, or longer or shorter?
Rory Rubin (28:54): That’s one of my biggest myth busters. We have a really good situation at our factory. We’re next door to Vapor Bus, the company that builds the door systems on buses and trains, the doors that open and close. They have a weather simulator in their factory, so we were able to take a piece of our Corten steel, paint it, and test it. We found that without any maintenance, the paint lasted 26 years. That’s pretty cool just from a painting standpoint. We also have data showing that, properly maintained like any regular home, our homes will outlast stick-frame homes and can last over a hundred years. Right now I live in a house that’s over a hundred years old, and we all know how much maintenance homes can cost. We know our homes will need less maintenance, because Corten steel is simply weatherproofed in a better way.
AI in Factory-Built Housing
Gordon Lamphere (29:58): Something we’re talking about on the podcast generally is AI and how it’s going to affect operations. How do you see that playing out with containerized modular housing versus traditional site-built homes? As AI shifts things, will we see more of an advantage for one or the other?
Rory Rubin (30:24): We’re already using AI. We’ve partnered with an organization called Merlin AI for all of our technology. It’s helping us purchase better and evaluate build times better, and it lets us evaluate all kinds of things, because it learns as we go. That’s just at a really basic level. I see other companies, like a 3D printing company for homes, and I think that’s pretty darn cool. AI is certainly here to stay. We’re actually interested in getting into the data center arena, because we know they use containers all the time when building data centers.
I’ll say it to all your listeners: I’m of the generation that grew up without a computer or a cell phone. I’m in my fifties, and I think it’s very funny that my kids don’t know anything different. So however we can incorporate technology that makes things more efficient, which brings costs down, we’re all in. But we also have the sustainability factor, the green factor, that weaves all of those things together.
The Final Four
Gordon Lamphere (31:43): I’ll admit, I’m of the generation that knows both the before and after, because that was my childhood. I remember the first day the internet came to our house. It’ll be funny when my kids are old enough for me to explain it to them. They’ll be like, “What’s this dial-up sound?” Let’s get into our Final Four. It’s always a nice way to wrap up, and this is a perfect transition. One thing we always love to ask: where do you see commercial real estate going ten years from now, particularly with ideas like containerized housing and AI?
Rory Rubin (32:30): I think we’ll become more efficient. We have no choice but to become more competitive. One thing that’s always troubling is that we don’t look to other countries to see what they’ve done well, and we’re sometimes so afraid to incorporate those things. In my organization, we spend a lot of time partnering and talking with other people. I don’t think of people as my competitors. I think of them as my collaborators. If you’re doing something that’s working really well for you and you can bring something to market cheaper and faster, I want to know about it, because that drives how we do business with our customers, whether a commercial space, a residential developer, or a nonprofit. We have to be comfortable with change, comfortable pivoting, and comfortable growing. That’s really what it takes, or we’ll become obsolete, because anybody can become obsolete.
Gordon Lamphere (33:41): Speaking of becoming obsolete, we always like to take a step back in time. Sometimes one of the best ways not to become obsolete is to learn from some of the best in the business, and that’s why we bring people on the podcast. If you could give advice to anybody listening who’s starting out in real estate, what would it be?
Rory Rubin (34:16): I actually talk about this a lot. People call me and ask this question, whether they’re young and coming right out of school or they’re would-be developers. My best advice, whatever you want to do, whether it’s developing or starting a factory, is to make sure you’re talking to and surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do. If you don’t, you’ll fall apart very, very quickly.
Especially for people who want to be developers: I find that role very misunderstood, and it’s an extremely difficult job. People think, “I can put up a bunch of buildings, and I’ll be a developer.” It doesn’t work like that. So my best advice is to find a couple of developers and ask to partner with them, shadow them, or be mentored by them, because they’ve seen the ups and downs and the ins and outs. It’s hard work. That’s what I try to do: always surround yourself with people who know more than you do.
Gordon Lamphere (35:28): We’ve developed nearly a thousand acres across southern Lake County alone, and I’ll say definitively that there’s a whole generation of people who came up during the low interest rate period between 2008 and 2022 who have no idea how much they rode the wave of low rates. Now, when they try to put deals together, they just don’t pencil anymore. We see it over and over in our business. So any way you can get a fifty percent improvement in build time and ten percent in cost is going to make a lot more deals pencil. We’re happy to have you on the podcast.
Rory Rubin (36:21): Really excited. Thank you.
Gordon Lamphere (36:27): Besides surrounding myself with people who know far more than I do, and there are so many at our firm who do, one of the ways I learn is books. You can’t always sit down and talk to somebody, but you can sometimes read what they’ve written. Is there a book we should pick up today?
Rory Rubin (36:48): A book? I’m reading something just for personal enjoyment right now.
Gordon Lamphere (36:53): That’s fine too. Sometimes it’s about expanding outside your usual realm.
Rory Rubin (36:57): It’s The Alchemist. I just picked it up because a couple of people were talking about it. In my role, I’m finding I need to understand more about mindfulness and other kinds of leadership for myself.
From a real estate perspective, what I tend to read is a lot of publications, like the Modular Building Institute’s. I’ll absolutely put in a plug for them, because Tom Hardiman’s group does a great job with a great publication. Gary Fleisher has been a mentor to me as well, through his publications, and Offsite Dirt. Audree Grubesic is a rock star in anything offsite. Reading what those three people put out there will surround you with some really good content.
Gordon Lamphere (37:43): Besides the names you mentioned, the whole reason for the podcast is bringing on thought leaders in commercial real estate, or at least adjacent to it. Who’s the next person we should have on the podcast?
Rory Rubin (38:01): I think Audree Grubesic would be fantastic to have on your podcast, if she has time. She’s great. She’s very connected and knows a lot about a lot. To me, she’s one of the best thought leaders I’ve interacted with over the last several years.
Gordon Lamphere (38:19): If you could make a connection, we’d love to have her on. And the last question: for anybody who wants to connect with you, what’s the best way to reach out?
Rory Rubin (38:32): Yes, please. I hope people do reach out, because I’d love to talk more about the commercial and residential projects we’re working on in the Chicagoland area. My email is my name, [email protected]. And just so people know, I don’t always tell people this, but the SI in SI Container Builds stands for Sustainable Imprints. So SI Container Builds encompasses both the sustainability piece and the container piece. But it’s [email protected].
Gordon Lamphere (39:07): Rory, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast today. We’ll have to have you on in the future.
Rory Rubin (39:10): Thanks, Gordon. Nice to see you.
Gordon Lamphere (39:12): Thanks again to Rory. We appreciate her insights. If you enjoyed the podcast, please give us a like, a five-star rating, and a review. Your comments, interactions, and subscriptions truly matter and help us continue to bring on quality guests. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I’m Gordon Lamphere with The Real Finds Podcast. Thank you for listening.
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