Caregiving, Building For A Longevity Society & The Future Of Work With Marisa Toldo – RFP 89 Transcript
Marisa Toldo (00:00): Basically, what we see now is that people are lying. Not because they want to, but because they cannot say the truth. And if we don’t name the problem, we cannot create solutions.
Gordon Lamphere (00:18): Hi, I’m Gordon Lamphere, and welcome to The Real Finds Podcast, where we have real conversations with key entrepreneurs, activists, and researchers who are shaping the real estate industry and, as a result, our world. On today’s podcast, we’ll be speaking with architect and workplace design strategist Marisa Toldo to dive into the future of workspaces, how caregiving challenges are costing businesses billions, and how innovative design solutions for human-centered office environments can help promote efficiency and, as a result, more profitable workspaces. If you’re interested in learning about the future of work, this podcast is well worth a listen. Marisa, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast today.
Marisa Toldo (01:05): Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
How Caregiving Became Personal
Gordon Lamphere (01:08): One of the things I know is a huge concern for so many in the workforce is the whole idea of caregiving and care. But before we get into that, could you give us a one-minute introduction about you and how you got into the world of real estate and physical place?
Marisa Toldo (01:29): I’m an architect by training. I’ve been working in building construction for many, many years. I’ve worked in Latin America and Spain, and now I live in Germany. A few years ago, my dad got Alzheimer’s, and he was living with Alzheimer’s. It really changed and shifted my perspective on the topic and the reality. I thought it was just us. When I started to ask around, I realized that it’s a topic that is really worrying, affecting many people. We are becoming a longevity society, with an aging population, and we also have the demographic shift. This topic came really close to my heart because of the reality I was facing with my own family.
Caregiving as a Workforce Issue
Gordon Lamphere (02:24): There are a lot of caregivers out there in society, and they really span the whole gamut of people in the workforce or out of the workforce. How do you see that playing out in society and in the professional setting in general?
Marisa Toldo (02:46): Wow, this is going to be a big shift. Harvard’s The Caring Company research already says that, at least in America, seventy-three percent of your employees are caregivers. Seventy-three percent is a big number, and it’s not going to go lower, that’s for sure. I think we really need to first name and see the problem, because we haven’t seen it and how it really affects the way we work, the way we care, and the way we live.
We also see that many caregivers are dropping out of the workforce in order to care. This is a huge, huge problem, because it’s not just that one person leaves. It’s a systemic problem. The next one who comes in will have the same problem. How we as a society are going to frame it is a good question, and we really need to run, because it’s not a problem for the future. It’s a problem for now that’s getting worse in the future, unfortunately.
I think we really need to be more aware of flexible work schedules. For example, you see companies that already provide childcare. But what happens when we talk about elder care? There’s a big silence. Really few companies provide support. For me, the best of all is intergenerational practice, which is connecting and building bridges between generations, between the elderly and children. Not just because it’s good, but because we’re also facing a big loneliness problem. So how do we face all these challenges we have as a society? And it’s connected with your workforce, because they are the ones who care: your employees, your colleagues, many people in your work environment.
Solutions: Intergenerational Care and Mixed Uses
Gordon Lamphere (04:53): So now we’ve got this problem, and I think most people can admit it is a problem. What are some potential solutions?
Marisa Toldo (05:08): For me, as I said, intergenerational practice is a winner. You see how guided interactions between children and the elderly are a win for all of them. You have companies that say, “Okay, we provide childcare because the return on investment is positive.” Not out of the goodness of their heart, but because the numbers are there. What if we also start thinking about supporting the elderly, our employees’ parents or partners? For me it’s quite interesting, because it requires seeing the situation in a really innovative, cross-pollinated way. We’re used to getting solutions in silos: childcare here, workforce there. And I’m asking why, because you are the one person who deals with and faces everything.
I’m going to be quite provocative. I like to talk about provocations more than solutions, because I think we’re at a good moment to provoke thinking and engage with ideas. Think about the majority of office buildings, not all of them. We’re talking about 30% vacancy. What are we going to do with that? What are we going to do with the ground floors in these spaces that could be useful in a good way? In the suburbs, for example, we’re also seeing that people are done with commuting. We don’t want to spend two or three hours commuting every day. So how can we take spaces that don’t look so appealing because of the vacancy and rethink them as more mixed use? Think about what they call co-located spaces: childcare, elder care close by, and a work environment close by. Sometimes we see coworking spaces providing childcare. But why aren’t we provoking more and thinking, what if we take spaces and create more mixed uses? That’s also a way to use these empty spaces, because remote work and flex work
Marisa Toldo (07:36): are staying, even though some companies are really pressuring people to go back to the office. The vacancies are there, so we have free spaces.
Is Flexibility Enough?
Gordon Lamphere (07:47): One of the things I generally hear from HR directors is, “Well, we can give a little bit of flexibility, and that might solve the problem.” Do you think flexible work schedules are the solution, or is that just putting a band-aid on the problem?
Marisa Toldo (08:05): It’s part of the solution. It’s part of the solution. I always say there’s no one size that fits all, and it depends on the industry itself, but we see that flexibility helps. You can work more flexibly depending on your task and your team, because sometimes your child gets sick and you need to work from home. Sometimes you need to take your parent to a doctor’s appointment.
Basically, what we see now is that people are lying. Not because they want to, but because they cannot say the truth. And if we don’t name the problem, we cannot create solutions. Sometimes you need to work in a few hours in the morning because you need to deal with some caregiving issues, but that doesn’t mean you can’t deliver the work.
I believe more in delivering the work than in micromanaging people. We’re also talking about building trust with your workforce and allowing them to be who they are, because when you feel safe in your work environment, you’re going to deliver the most. And take a caregiver: we need the money to pay for things. You need to pay the rent, you need to pay for the care, you need to pay for many things. I’m going to be really happy if I’m able to keep my job and also support my loved ones. So flexible work environments are key for me, because they allow space for all of this, along with naming the situation. Also commuting. It’s really hard to drive three hours every day of your life when maybe there could be other spots that fit your workforce’s needs and support them with less commuting. So it’s many things.
The Office as a Design Failure
Gordon Lamphere (10:09): One thing I’ve seen you talk and write about is office vacancy. A lot of people write about it as a demand problem, and that’s the primary focus, and that’s true to a degree. But one of the things I’ve seen you write about is office as a design failure. How is office a design failure?
Marisa Toldo (10:40): I think we design spaces for the perfect employee: no care needs, one single person able to work twenty-four seven. That doesn’t exist. It’s true that some people are able to work that way for some spans of time. But unfortunately, you get sick, you get older. I always say, “I’m not older, I have more wisdom.” But the reality is here. If you look at the data, we are collective. We are human beings, we are employees, we are parents, we are daughters, we are all of them.
Spaces to work are amazing. I have wonderful colleagues designing for neurodiversity, which is a huge topic that many are talking about. But nowadays you have four or five generations in the workforce. Do you fulfill all their needs? We need to think about it. We’re really designing for what I call the carefree employee. Apparently, we are carefree employees, but in reality we’re not. We don’t talk about it in the workforce, and that’s true. Every time I bring the topic to the table, I hear crickets. It’s like, “Okay, amazing, you have childcare. Let’s talk about elder care.” And people are like, “Why is this woman talking about this?”
We are not carefree employees. We are employees, we love to work, but the reality is you start working in your twenties and you end in your sixties or seventies, and through all those ages your reality changes and your needs change. So, and again this is a provocation, how do we really design spaces to support the way we work and how work is going to change in the future?
Marisa Toldo (12:52): The office environment is one thing. A hospital is another environment. Industry is different. AI is here and is changing the way we work a lot, but we are still humans, and we really need to embrace the human in us.
Making Space for People to Speak Up
Gordon Lamphere (13:16): So how do we embrace that humanity and still incorporate AI and all this new intelligence into the workplace?
Marisa Toldo (13:29): I guess the first thing is giving people a space where they feel safe, because you only bring your whole self, or feel allowed to talk, when you feel safe in your work environment, and not many companies allow that. The other is recognizing that reality changes. How do we provide these spaces for care? And the other part is that technology is here, and it’s going to change the way we work. I’m a people person. I love people and I’m curious about people. I love technology too, so I’m pro-technology. But how do we get the right balance? What work are we going to do, and what work are we not going to do anymore? I guess that balance depends a lot on the sector itself, because no one solution fits all.
But we also need to allow people to bring the topic to the table. For example, when I was engaging with caregivers, I asked them, “Would you like your company to offer a service to take care of your elderly parents?” One group of people said, “Well, I don’t want the company to know I’m dealing with that.” Another group said, “It would be amazing, because I could check in really fast, and I’d know my parents are in a safe environment.” And another group said, “Nice, but not in the office itself. Co-located.” That’s interesting, because it gives you a bunch of information: people need the service and the support, but where and how do we locate it? Should it be co-located, and in which environment? How do we make people feel safe with both their caregiver roles and their working roles? Because not all kids have good relationships with their parents, and not all parents have good relationships with their kids. But the numbers show that we need to care even if we don’t want to. It’s reality. For me, it’s also: let’s just ask people. And it’s going to go hand in hand
Marisa Toldo (15:54): with the city itself, or the location itself. We really need to start thinking about solutions that involve more than one sector, because we can’t handle it alone. We need to think about the private sector, the public sector, the health sector, the city or municipality you’re in, and how we can support each other. I made a drawing, and it’s really fun. It’s you, and you pay taxes to the city, you are the employee, you are the daughter and caregiver of your parents, you are the mom of your kids, and you also need to balance your health. It’s all you, and all these stakeholders are connected to you. I know it’s challenging and really provocative, but I like it. I like to provoke people, because provoking this thinking and blowing up what things are supposed to be invites different solutions. It invites people to speak out and say, “Well, I don’t agree with that, but maybe I agree with another option.” And maybe we can think in a different way and get better solutions we haven’t thought of before.
Designing for a Multigenerational Workforce
Gordon Lamphere (17:10): Speaking of provoking, one thing that provokes a lot of heated debate in HR, at least I can attest in the US, is the issue we’re seeing in the longevity society of multigenerational workforces. What are you seeing in terms of how people are dealing with the physical space when you’re sometimes incorporating a workforce that spans fifty years?
Marisa Toldo (17:45): It’s challenging everywhere. It’s not just in America. I think we’re moving more toward hoteling and toward more mixed solutions in the workforce, depending on the task you’re doing and on the team itself. I love to talk about reverse mentoring, because we need the younger and we need the older. If we’re able to build bridges to communicate with each other, to exchange, respect, and see each other, and to have that conversation respecting each generation and learning what we can from the others, we create spaces that allow us to thrive as a company. We also need to understand that the younger workforce has different needs and views than the senior workforce, and we need all of them. We need the wisdom, we need the experience, and we need the engagement and drive of the younger ones. We need this reverse mentoring. For me, it’s the only way to innovate.
It also depends on the industry and the sector. I don’t like to give a homemade solution for everyone, because I don’t think that works. I’ll give you a fun example. You ask someone from Finland, “It’s cold. How cold?” And you ask someone from Venezuela, “It’s cold.” You’ll get two different “it’s colds.” One is talking about minus 20 degrees centigrade, and the other could be talking about 25 degrees centigrade. So how much noise is noise?
Then there are people with neurodiversity, and this is interesting. I was engaging with a professor and researcher, a neurologist, because I was freaking out about neurodiversity. I said, “You’re a researcher on the topic, so let’s talk about neurodiversity.” And she said, “Well, you know, no one is normal. We just have people who haven’t been tested.” For example, we have a senior workforce who have never been tested, who have never been
Marisa Toldo (20:07): made aware of the topic, and they are neurodiverse without knowing it. It’s really interesting. So how do we create safe spaces to bring up the conversation with respect, and with curiosity too, which for me is the spark? How do we embrace curiosity across the different ages in the workforce, to be curious about and respectful of the needs of others? How can we ask, and how can we create that environment? Because from my perspective, what we’re going to see is more similarities than differences. We really need to build these bridges and these commonalities rather than keep people separated.
Ask Your People
Gordon Lamphere (20:53): Embracing commonalities is a challenge, but it’s doable. Are there any tools we can use to find broad commonalities and make the workplace as accessible to as many people as possible? As you said, there’s no carefree, perfect employee, but maybe there are some large buckets we can use to make the workplace as accessible and functional for as many employees as possible. How do we get there?
Marisa Toldo (21:31): Ask. Ask people. It’s super interesting, because sometimes I’m talking with managers who say, “We’ll never ask people, because then we’ll get 10,000 different requirements and needs.” But I was engaging with really young employees in startup and tech environments, and they don’t do anything without asking. I was fascinated by both approaches. Two realities. For me, even if people are bored of filling out questionnaires, get the team leaders to ask their teams, because each team really works in a different environment. I know you can’t accommodate everything in big multinationals, but you can create different work environments that respect all the needs.
Asking is key, because you also need the data. Otherwise you invest millions to build a beautiful office no one wants to go to, which is the reality. Then companies feel the pressure: “Go back to the office.” But do you want people to be happy at the office and thriving, or are you going to build an office just to have people on Zoom calls? What are the tasks? How do we see each other? How can we ask about that?
And this is going to be even more of a challenge: are we allowing people to feel they have their own space? I know we now have flex environments where you go and drop in. But do you feel that you belong to the office? Or maybe you don’t need to belong, because you travel a lot and you just need a spot where the acoustics work and the environment is friendly. I’m a big fan of biophilic design. I love it. And something interesting that’s now even more appealing is the field of neurodiversity, because now we have the tools, and this is going to sound even more out there to people, to talk about the beauty in the space and how we can make sure the
What Is Biophilic Design?
Gordon Lamphere (23:52): What is biophilic design, for anybody tuning in who hasn’t heard that phrase before?
Marisa Toldo (24:01): Okay. Biophilic design is bringing nature into the building. It’s not just putting three plants there to look fancy. It’s bringing in the proper light and the proper acoustics, and the design should also have some surprise. It’s super interesting. It’s not a new field. It’s been around for thirty or forty years, quite a long time. But it’s bringing aspects of nature into the building itself.
Why? Let’s talk about lighting, for example. Good lighting isn’t just blue light or white light or a lux measurement. We have a bunch of regulations about that, but how do we embrace a lighting system that supports the circadian rhythm? How do we create environments that make people move around? Why movement? If people think sitting at a desk for eight hours is productive, you’re killing yourself. You need movement to be productive and healthy.
Then there’s acoustics. If you have an environment that’s super noisy, no one can concentrate there. And I’m a big fan of paying attention to smells and the materials you use, because what you breathe goes directly into your body. What type of paint are you using? What type of materials? All these chemicals are affecting you at some point. The space design itself also plays a role. You can measure humidity, for example. Plants help deliver better humidity, which reduces sick days because there are fewer viruses around. And also air quality.
I’m a big fan of being able to open my window, and we don’t have that choice in many office spaces. But are we designing spaces where people can walk around the building for a short time? That allows natural daylight and movement. It’s not about productivity for its own sake. It’s about being productive through the way you move, the way you
Marisa Toldo (26:21): work. I was also talking about walking meetings. Do we allow walking meetings, in which environment, and in what form? That should be there, because it’s a way to keep your employees healthy.
And coming back to lighting: why do you want good lighting? Because you want your employees to be able to sleep. If they don’t sleep, they’re not going to be productive. If you just have blue lighting, it directly affects your circadian rhythm and your sleep. So you want a good lighting system because you want your employees to be able to sleep at night and be fresh to work the next day. So it’s really fun. It’s not about putting in some plants. It’s really about thinking about productivity and efficiency.
Measuring How Space Is Used
Gordon Lamphere (27:08): I know one company we’ve worked with put in a gym, better natural lighting, and a better HVAC system, and they said, “Wow, we have twenty-five percent fewer sick days.” And it’s like, guys, yes. Corporations don’t just do this out of the kindness of their hearts sometimes. It makes financial sense. One of the things that makes a lot of financial sense is understanding, beyond just asking your employees, what other ways we can gather information about the workspace. I know it’s something you’ve touched on. Asking is great, and it’s something we do all the time, but are there other ways to learn how your workforce is looking at its workspace, or how occupiers are using their space, to help create other spaces?
Marisa Toldo (28:09): Sensors. We have ten thousand sensors. Here in Europe, people are sensitive about data policy. I have really good facility manager friends who love to measure everything. You have some really fancy things you can put under your desk that measure acoustics, space occupancy, and also where people sit.
You can also get an anthropologist to do that, which I love. It’s interesting to see where people sit in a space, and you can do that through studies or through sensors. I’m more into the studies. Sensors help you measure everything, but it’s data. You want to know why you’re getting that data and why the data is responding that way.
For example, my godmother was a psychologist, and we used to sit in a coffee shop because she loved to watch how people behave, and I love to watch how people move in a space. The funny part is that people normally sit in the safe spot, which also has to do with biophilic design. You want to feel safe in a space. By watching how people move around a space and what interactions they have, you’ll learn a lot and get better information to create better designs. You can always get data with the fancy measurement tools. There’s a lot of software and there are many suppliers to measure things, but I’m more into the human side, to see why they move that way and how we can improve it. For meeting rooms, for example, you can measure which meeting rooms are busy, and whether it makes sense to have smaller or bigger ones. All that data is collected by sensors, and people know that better than me.
Gordon Lamphere (30:20): We’ve had a number of sensor companies on, and I’m sure we’ll have more. It’s always an interesting conversation, particularly because some of them have much better data privacy than others. You don’t necessarily want to be putting video cameras in the bathroom. But at the same time, you don’t want to rely purely on employees’ word of mouth. One of the data sensor companies we work with was phenomenal at uncovering conference room waste. The employees said, “We use the conference room almost every day.” And it’s like, no, you don’t.
Marisa Toldo (31:05): How many people use the big ones? “We use it.” You have three in an office of twenty. Does that make sense?
Planning Space Around AI
Gordon Lamphere (31:14): We’ve had this conversation, particularly about huddle rooms versus conference rooms, and I think that’s something companies are changing and moving forward on. One thing we’d love to move forward on is understanding where things are going. One of the basic things I’ve heard you talk about is AI and the workforce of the future. What are you seeing from companies that are looking at space and trying to plan around AI?
Marisa Toldo (31:41): Hmm. This is quite interesting, because I think it’s going to be quite disruptive. We see some companies that need bigger office space because they’re growing in technology, and then they need to reduce because they’re out of the market. So I don’t have a clear answer, because I have no clarity yet. I think the next three to five years are going to be quite disruptive. When you talk with companies and ask how they see themselves in ten years, you get answers in quarters. I say, “Okay, I’m happy that you think in quarters, but I’m an architect. We need to think further forward.” It’s going to be quite challenging, because I guess really few people know where we’re going and how.
I think we really need to create spaces that make sense for human beings and the longevity society. We have a lot of disruption, but one thing that’s clear is that we’re going to be a longevity society. We have aging populations, and we are still caregivers. I know this is quite provocative, because everyone is thinking about AI: should we build data centers, how do we get the water, the electricity, and so on. Okay, nice, we need that. But if you want to work with people, you’ll still need people in the next three to five years. There’s going to be a lot of disruption, and the way we work is going to change, but in three to five years you still need people.
And those people have realities that we need to face and support. If you want a good employee, you need to keep them. It’s not so easy to just replace one, because the next one is going to have the same problem. So we really need to start thinking about how to support a longevity society in light of what’s happening in the world. Sorry for not being more techy and giving you a clearer picture.
Gordon Lamphere (33:59): No, I think that’s an honest approach, because one of the biggest things people aren’t talking about enough is how people actually fit into all this technological change. We have thousands of listeners. What’s one thing they should be thinking about that we maybe haven’t talked about already?
Marisa Toldo (34:23): Repurposing the spaces themselves, and how we can allow more mixed uses in one environment. I know people will hate me, because they get more money renting an office than renting to social housing or a daycare facility. But I really believe we need to embrace the community and think about more mixed uses, because as a society we’re going to need that. How do we repurpose the office spaces we have? We also need to think in a sustainable way.
It’s funny, because I’m an architect and I don’t like to say, “Let’s build everything new.” That’s a challenge for an architect. But how do we make sense of the space we have for the needs we’re going to have? I want to see more nature in buildings, and more mixed uses. Not just ten thousand square meters of offices and then housing, but mixing them in a way that’s intelligent for the planet, for people, and for all of us, because the reality is there. At least people in Germany are quite sensitive about sustainability and circular building and all that, and I agree with that. But we really need to rethink the way we build and the way we use spaces. I know people won’t be too happy to hear that, but it’s another provocation. How can we embrace a mix of uses that also makes sense from a financial point of view? I don’t have an answer for that.
Gordon Lamphere (36:11): I think mixed use can be the most financially profitable. My own grandfather was part of a number of developments where he pushed for mixed use because he thought it would be more profitable, and it ended up not getting approved for a variety of reasons. Then a local village came back to us and said, “Hey, would you consider mixed use?” And we showed them the notes from when we originally developed it fifteen years prior and said, “Yes, we’d love it. We were pushing for this fifteen years ago.” So there are definitely times when you have the developer pushing against it, but the dirty secret of real estate is that developers just want to make money, and sometimes mixed use is the highest and best use, the most profitable for an area, and what’s ultimately going to drive a profitable deal.
The Final Four
One of the things we love to talk about on the podcast, and this is one of our Final Four questions we always ask men and women in the arena, because they tend to have interesting insight: where do you see real estate going ten years from now?
Marisa Toldo (37:35): Well, I love robots, you know? It’s true. I’m pro-robot, which is quite a contradiction. Sorry, I mix German, Spanish, English, and Italian, and it’s a mess. One of my best friends and advisors is an anthropologist who’s an expert in robots in care. For me it’s, okay, how do we design spaces to be robot friendly? This is something people in care hate when I talk about it. I’m like, “Well, we have a demographic gap. Hello? Be realistic.” So I think we need to think about robots in space and how we design robot-friendly spaces.
Drones, too. I was talking with some investors here in Berlin who were telling me they’re rebuilding a super fancy space, and I asked, “So where can I park my drone?” He thought I was joking. I said, “I’m not joking. How do you think deliveries are going to work in ten years? You think you’re still going to have the guy driving the van?” He said, “You’re crazy.” I said, “I’m not crazy. Talk to people in aviation, in drones, in deliveries. It’s a reality.” I don’t know how we’re going to solve that, but let’s think about how we build and create spaces that are robot friendly and drone friendly. I know I’m quite provocative, but yeah.
Gordon Lamphere (39:15): No, I think that’s a really important topic that not enough people in the office and retail world are talking about. In the industrial world, we’ve been talking about it on the podcast since its inception, and anybody who’s been reading industrial magazines knows that automation and drone use have been a big topic for at least the last ten years. So it makes sense that it would come over to office and to other asset classes as well.
In terms of things that make sense, one of the things people get a lot of joy out of on this podcast is advice. We have a lot of younger listeners, and they love hearing from men and women who’ve been successful in their careers. If you had one minute to give yourself advice when you were starting your career, what would it be?
Marisa Toldo (40:16): Keep different sources. Talk with the cleaning lady the same way you talk with the sociologist, the researcher, and the users. I’m extremely curious. I talk with sociologists, anthropologists, caregivers, doctors, people in real estate, developers, everyone, because it gives you a bigger picture and a fresh view. Talk with different generations and people from different areas, because it keeps your mind curious. Be what they call curious from the heart: try to understand the other person and learn from their perspective.
If you look at my network, it’s quite mixed. I’m talking with experts in airports and others in robots in care. An hour ago, I was talking with a friend of mine who’s an artist, because artists know how to get things moving in a different way. I talk with architects and engineers too. Keep that curiosity and explore different topics. I’m a super fan of cross-pollination, which requires you to be flexible in your mind and your spirit. And the other thing is agreeing to disagree. I used to have this with some friends: “Let’s agree that sometimes we’re going to disagree.”
Gordon Lamphere (41:57): Cross-pollination ends up finding some of the best results, and that’s kind of been the whole point of this podcast. We bring on very different people and get a lot out of it. One of the ways we find these very different people is by asking our guests. So who should be the next man or woman on the podcast?
Marisa Toldo (42:21): It depends on what you want. For example, the University of Pennsylvania has an amazing think tank on intergenerational practice, if you want to bring more to that topic. I know more people in Europe working on neuroarchitecture, because for me that’s going to be the next thing: how we bring beauty into space. The person I’m thinking of, one second, because I have the book here, is Davide Ruzzon, but he’s in Italy. He’s amazing, from the built environment. I believe intergenerational practice is going to be a big player in the future. We’re seeing more requests and more curiosity about it, and the University of Pennsylvania has this amazing think tank with architects and people in different fields. And neuroarchitecture, for me, is amazing, because we finally have data. Amazing people are doing amazing work there.
Gordon Lamphere (43:28): I’m going to reach out to you after we finish on that, and I’d love to get some contacts. But before we wrap up, what’s the best way for someone to get in contact with you?
Marisa Toldo (43:37): You can send me an email at [email protected], or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Both.
Gordon Lamphere (43:48): Thank you so much for hopping on the podcast today. We really appreciate it, and we’ll have to have you on in the future.
Marisa Toldo (43:54): Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a real pleasure.
Gordon Lamphere (43:59): Thanks again to Marisa. We appreciate her insights. If you enjoyed the podcast, please give us a like, a five-star rating, and a review. Your comments, interactions, and subscriptions truly matter and help us continue to bring on quality guests. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I’m Gordon Lamphere with The Real Finds Podcast. Thank you for listening.
Van Vlissingen and Co. has been the Midwest’s oldest commercial real estate brokerage, development, and management firm since 1879, and today is independently ranked the #1 commercial real estate agency in Chicagoland, home to the #1 independently ranked agent, Gordon Lamphere, and the region’s #1 ranked commercial property management team. If you own, manage, or invest in energy-adjacent, mixed-use, or transit-oriented property across Lake County, the North Shore, the Northwest and O’Hare corridors, DuPage and the I-88 corridor, Will County, or southern Wisconsin’s Pleasant Prairie, Kenosha, and Racine markets, contact Van Vlissingen and Co. at 📞 847-634-2300 or 🌐 vvco.com. For a market-wide view of where these dynamics sit today, see our State of the Chicagoland Commercial Real Estate Market for Q3 2026.